How to Build an Empire Around Your Music ft. Josh Baker | EF EP 168

0:00 Hey guys, today I am re releasing one of my favorite episodes I've ever done and I wanted to put a fresh intro on it because it's even more relevant now than when I first put it out last year. This is a conversation with Josh Baker, one of my favorite artists. I keep coming back to this conversation because Josh is the best example I know of an artist who treats his career like an actual business. He's a DJ and producer, but he's also built this whole ecosystem around himself. A party series, a festival, an artist education platform, and all of those things feed one another. And what I really want you to listen for is how he thinks about buying his own time back by paying people to handle the stuff that doesn't need him. So he's feel free to focus on the things that actually grow his career because that's how he's built a bunch of different income streams instead of just relying on gigs. This is aspirational, but if you put into practice the things he talks about, you 2 can attain this level. And this is the kind of career that doesn't depend on you gigging forever and every weekend so that you can sustain yourself and your family or you know, whoever you take care of. This is how you build a career that can grow beyond you. So without further ado, let's get into this conversation. Ever wonder how top DJs actually built their careers? I had to do 15 years of hard work to get any of the recognition that I wanted.

1:30 Where I saw a turning point in my career is when I came true to myself. From marketing and mindset to networking and negotiation, I'm giving you the tools you need to build a lasting career in dance music. Give them bits of you and your everyday life. You have to change the way you view the word no. Like me, I'm encouraged by it. Join me, Olivia Mancuso and industry leaders as we reveal what it really takes to turn your passion into profit. This is elevated frequencies. You have built so many successful brands before the age of 30. I think I have that. Just hanging on just. Are you 29 or 39?

2:11 Wow. So how do you introduce yourself? That is a good question. But now more than ever, I think I would say more DJ producer. Over the last few years, I definitely spent way more time on other businesses such as Syntho, Hide and Seek and You and Me. Now I feel like I'm more actually kind of gone full circle. I'm back to doing what I set out to do. However, which I'm sure we'll talk about today, there's been like sections in this journey where I began to veer off from this thing of being a typical DJ, producer. And I would say I satisfied an itch in terms of entrepreneurial kind of curiosities. So built some different things, at times even considered like going all in on them and even thinking like, do I actually want a tourist, an artist, things like that. But now I would say if someone said in a bar, what do you do? I would say I'm a DJ and producer. And that's how I first knew of you. And then with my research, I realized, OK, wow, you're a partner and all of these things.

3:08 When did you realize that you had the entrepreneurial bug? I know it sounds really cliche, well in England anyway. Everyone that kind of tells these stories, it's like they sold some sweets at school, things like that. Was kind of interested in hearing stories of people who have built things that are pretty big and just always wanted to do more than just music. I think my brain is a bit more like logical in terms of, I think some artists are kind of quite like trippy and, you know, loose, and they can find these ideas from spaces no one else can. I think I work quite logically when I make music, and I think business kind of works that way as well. So I just feel like I need to do that in my life to feel, what's the word kind of complete.

3:50 So were you selling candy? Yeah, yeah. You know, that usual stuff on the play going and then like always thinking about, you know, how could you make a bit of money selling things here and there and just naturally kind of always having an eye on things like that. Did you ever watch Shark Tank? Yeah, you know Dragons Den is the UK. Version. Yeah, things like that, you know, like I enjoy watching that and my mum works in like corporate world into business, so took inspiration from her. So been kind of surrounded by that stuff from a young age. Yeah, I think we're starting to see it more now, especially with emerging artists who are interested in throwing their own events, their own pop ups, starting small things like coffee shops. I know you've even done like a laundromat style pop up before but I think more artists are starting to catch on that especially in America. If you can't get booked, I mean what? Why not book yourself?

4:37 Yeah, that was literally why we started, you and me. So the the story was I went to Ibiza at the age of, I think it was 19, and I was deejaying every single day at this villa. And it was the kind of logical thing that when I went back, I needed a platform to play. And back then it was competitive. It felt competitive. But even now it seems like more competitive than ever. But at the time it felt like, OK, the only option is to start a night. And yeah, the the literal reason to do it was to give myself a chance to get experience playing behind the decks, just my friends, no bookings, things like that. And it was literally just to give myself that chance that you said just to get booked. Yeah, it's it's such a smart. I've seen, I've seen some artists literally DJ their own birthday parties and they make content out of it and it's a, it's a starting point.

5:24 I mean, for sure, like before that I did you and me, I used to set decks up in my parents house. I would take a jacket generator to fields. We used to do like parties in fields. When I was I think maybe like 1617, we'd literally we bought our M of the day. We, we went on Facebook marketplace, we googled generator, we bought a generator for £20. We took it like a field filled up petrol pulling like a Facebook group, invited people there. I think we did like 3 times. And then alongside that every single weekend. So 13 years ago now I would take like a small boom box to house parties and like set them up there. And at the time people like turn this shit off, you know, like 13 years ago it was nowhere near as big as it is now.

6:05 Like people didn't listen to house music really. Like there wasn't as much like radio commercial kind of crossover like it is now. So most people there just wanted to like R&B and rap, etcetera. But yeah, that was like an early kind of thing of making Sham myself. And then it was like the natural progression and to kind of do it in natural venue opposed to just doing houses, things like that. Amazing. You just got to take the first step. Yeah, I think. You've got to have initiative to just make things happen because no one's going to ask you to begin with, OK? Will you come DJ here? You've kind of just got to try and prove your worth where you can. Yeah, so did. Did you and me come first or did Hide and Seek festival come you? And me, So you and me was born. This year is the 10 year anniversary of it, which is crazy. So a decade of doing parties, we just started in a Fallowfield basement.

6:47 Fortunately my business partners, Kurt Dash and Dan, they were already doing student events. So they were already promoters, which is great for me. I was a DJ, they were promoters. Like on that note, anyone listening, if you're going to start a night, try and find people who aren't just DJs because everyone's a fucking DJ, then it's going to be like clash of heads from from the off. So they were already promoters. They had the experience, the knowledge of how to set up a night. They had a contact at a place in Fallowfield, which is like a really grungy student area in Manchester. I think it was 200 capacity. We sold out straight away. So it was like 3 LB to gain or something like that. We sold it out, done did it again, sold it out. And then we made the rookie error of trying to book talent, you know, because like that's what you think you do.

7:31 You know, you book big names, then everyone comes then not to go too far into that, but like, we started trying to book names pretty quickly. And yeah, I didn't go so well. So we should have stuck to the slow and steady growth, which I would advise anyone trying, you know, just go from 100 to 150 to 200 to 250, like incremental increases in capacity. And we didn't, we tried to go like 2 events then go for it. But yeah, you and me first. And it's the same team who did you and me did hide and seek. Wow. Wow. Yeah. I mean, I think it's such an overwhelming thing. People think they have to have everything perfect from the jump to be able to throw an event, but you have to learn. You have to build on those increments. Another thing that interests me because I was just in Brooklyn last weekend, the weekend before with Kai William, he hosts something called a developed workshop.

8:19 It's like an artist's education workshop as an extension of his label. I am very curious how you and artists, other artists who do this, how do you balance building your own brand as Josh Baker, the artist versus all these other things you have a hand in? And does sometimes one thing steal your attention? And how do you like, how do you manage all that? I think if I look back like over a kind of a time period, you and me at the start was definitely kind of growing quicker than I was. And that was kind of allowing me to. It was like you and me, we'd start to over a couple years, we talked to book bigger names. The bigger names would kind of build your me up. And then I could almost like coattail off the back of that. So I'd warm up these artists, got to know the artists, people come for the artists and see me. So it was like if we try to focus on growing you and me, then I was catching up with it.

9:08 But then there was a point in time, probably after COVID, where I started to get a bit more attraction, you know, releases more followers. And then now it's kind of clear that I'm much bigger than you and me. And it brings you and me up with it. But it's hard with that kind of thing. They both combine each other. The bigger I've got, the bigger that's got. But in the old days, the bigger that got get me a platform. Same with hide and seek, like hide and seek to begin with, hide and seek is still kind of bigger than me. Hard to kind of compare the two. Hide and seek to begin with was a much bigger product than I was. And then each year I've got bigger. I've kind of helped that grow as well. And this year with the first time I closed the festival. So it's like, you know, after six years now, I'm the arguably one of the biggest acts on there and I'll close it. So it's kind of hard to say how you divide your time because it's an ecosystem.

9:54 That's the beauty of it. I think that the bigger I get as an artist, that more helps all the other brands. The main thing I would say is when I spent more time in Syntho, which can talk about more detail as an education platform, when I spent more time on that because there's a lot of moving parts, like behind the scenes, you know, like hiring people, managing people, content plans, tech plans. They don't help Josh Baker get bigger as an artist. So when I spent more time on that, probably a couple years ago, my artist create wasn't growing as quickly as it is now. And it's quite clear to see when I started making my music again, the start of last year, this starts to grow much quicker. So the Syntho thing behind the scenes doesn't really contribute towards like me getting bigger. However, me getting bigger does actually make Syntho get bigger, if that makes sense.

10:38 That's kind of where we're at now. Like my role now in the business Syntho is to be kind of like creative director. Face of it. I've now got a full team working for me and allows me to just do this music thing because the more followers, more fans, I can gain well then feed into Syntho, which is the best way to do it. So it's kind of quite complicated. There's quite a few moving parts. Yeah, well and also gaining brand equity is not and leverage with your brand is not necessarily the same thing as making a bunch of money. 1 is a longer term strategy, a long game. Long game for sure. I think the whole thing, everything we've done within our team, we've always been really, really patient on. Like I think they're saying something that the longer the wait, the bigger they ask, you know, if you just wait, wait, wait, wait, if the minute you start getting any success, you're trying to charge loads for tickets, trying to get people to sign up to this, sign up to that, it's not authentic and then unlike to do it. Whereas if you can build trust over time, you know, making YouTube videos, doing podcasts, and then you decide to sell something, there's much more trust and people are willing to pay for whatever you're offering them. Yeah, yeah.

11:37 That's such a good point. I think there's a lot of, you know, it's like a scarcity mindset of like, Oh my God, I need to make money now. And that's, and like you said, the building trust thing is, is so huge. People are more likely to buy from someone who they familiarize themselves with and you've, you know, given them things like cheap accent. I don't want to say cheap, but you know what I mean. Low ticket price, access to certain things. Yeah, yeah. And I think with like when they're trying to sell anything, I think there's some percentage just like try and give away like 90% of it for free. You know, like Synth that we give away free YouTube videos, we give away tips every single day. And then that 10%, if people like the 90%, often they'll be willing to part with that final bit of cash for the extra 10%. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

12:21 That's something I'm learning with my Patreon audience and it took time to build that. I had to keep giving more and more for free in order to get the Patreon. It's find out balance, right? I think people are always scared. We're we're working on this new thing actually with synth at the moment with a different platform. And this is the conversation we had this morning. It's like how much we give for free. But I think a lot of the time you can actually give more than you expect and people will see the value in it and then be willing to give you the money. Like even on bank camp, for example, I've noticed on bank camp sometimes people do it so you don't have to pay them at all. And like if it's really good track, I'm like you have €3 whatever for four euro, whereas it was like if they were just charging 11 euro from the off, I'd have said like no. So I think you should always be willing to try and give away that extra bit to try and get that sale or whatever you should do.

13:04 Yeah, yeah, 100%. And it's. And it's also about figuring out what should be behind the paywall. I think a lot of people struggle with that too, and they want to keep too many things close to chest. But what I've learned, you know, I'm an artist's education on the branding and business side. It's like you can only do so many things yourself. Eventually you're going to need help from somebody if you want to scale to the to the next. Level for sure, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I remember Syntho, the first higher I did was such a big moment because when I started Syntho, it was similar to Patreon, a website similar to that, and I recorded these videos and it was pretty mind blowing how it happened because it was a time was important. It was when COVID started, so everyone was stuck inside, No one could do anything. I started doing one or more lessons online, and I was telling everyone the same thing.

13:51 So I was like, OK, there must be a bad way to do this. But this was very much before everyone's making videos, everyone's talking to the camera. I remember saying to myself, I wish I could do that, like talk to a camera. And I spoke like so far, I think on podcasts, like on my own back in the day. But I remember this moment where I was like, why don't you just do the video? But like, I'd never spoke to Cameron. My life. Yeah. Largest thing went really good. And it was like after about a year or so, it was like the video editing and posting and I was kind of like I was going down a rubble myself, which I'm sure you've been on of just like biographies, podcasts, leverage. I think the keyword was leverage. When I had the word leverage, I understood that properly with leverage through labour, like in pace when else to do something while you while you do something else. It was like a like a penny really dropped. So I was like, wait a SEC, I can pay them at the time I'm using to edit the video or whatever.

14:40 Then whilst they're editing the video, I can use that time to make a new video. And it was like an epiphany. But funnily enough, when I first hired someone, I wasn't like, I kind of hired them and then chilled out more. I was like, that's not how leverage works. Leverage works to do something, then you do something higher leverage, which like is I think you've got to kind of figure out to begin with. But yeah, for me it was like I hired someone full time and she could help me do like the editing, then we could start to get into more ideas, things like that. And across my businesses, bringing like a good team has been what's allowed me to do like a lot of things. I was going to ask that how soon did you, let's take hide and seek, for example, because that's, I would say probably one of the bigger beasts, right? Is, is that festival? How soon did you start outsourcing you? Actually really laugh at this.

15:23 Of all the businesses, that's where they got the least external input. Really. Yeah, so Kurt, my manager, business partner, best friend, he's been there from with me since the start. He's the main guy, hide and seek. He is like the best of the best at what when it comes to promoting attention to detail management. Like he's the guy. I'm sure he won't mommy saying this like he wanted to be in control of all of it. And like this is a problem in business. Like if you're not willing to let go of some of the small stuff, it's hard to grow. But like hasn't really been a problem for us. But that of all the things, I mean, you and me, we, we are pretty lean, still behind. See, we have got just one girl and that works on payroll. One girl. Yeah, Yeah, yeah. Full time, Really. Yeah.

16:03 But I mean, it's over a year. We have contractors towards the events. You have people that help out, like the site managers, things like that. Right, Right. I don't want to put words in Curt's mouth because he'll be able to identify like who we bring aboard. So on the day, you know, we've got people help out with the bar, things like that. But to deliver the festival, it's like a super lean operation. But like he's he's, he's been doing this like 10 billion hours. Like he's run shooting events for maybe 15 years, like you and me so like to run a festival and then watch this. He wants to do a festival. It's unlikely someone no experience could do it on their own. You'd have to get consultants probably, like book his managers, everything to help you out. But because he's got such unique skill set and done it so long, that's actually quite a lean you at Syntho is the one with a lot of heavy baggage which people might not realize.

16:46 Yeah. Well, because you're you're producing content, there's all tech stack there, I imagine. Yeah, I mean, I'll openly say we've got 2 video editors. We've got 2/3 inhouse shooters. So that they're both all, they're part time, they're not kind of full time. We've got like a market manager, social media manager, head of content, we've got CTO, we've got CEO and head of marketing. So like that's a, that's a whole dev agency. Then we've got like 8 developers. Am I missing anyone out? So that is a big like that. So I hired the CEO like 2 months ago no more than that probably in January now and it's going great. But that business is for is is hard work. But the whole plan is to keep scaling it maybe exit 1 day who knows. But if you watch this guys, you think about tech don't do it. Techs is a headache because like you can't make changes in an app or whatever like that like Patreon super easy don't buy videos do this.

17:40 The reason I built the app was to hopefully, you know, own the code, own the content, own the users. It's not rented off somewhere else. There's nothing wrong with renting off like Patreon. It's actually really profitable and much better in in a sense. I tried to go big. Well, I say try to go big. It's going really good. But it's hard work. Like it's a lot of money at stake. Calls most days. But yeah, I mean, it's fun. But yeah, that's it. We've got a lot of people involved in this info. How do you, I mean, you just told me that you you got in yesterday and you're leaving straight from the club tonight. How do you how do you do this? I'll be honest, right, I think this this moment right now is potentially the the tiredest I've been. So I was I try not to say I'm tired on my YouTube video.

18:22 So any any like watchers are probably laughing right now. I always say because I'm always knackered, but I mean, you can imagine I'm like always fucking tired. So what did he last? Three weeks was actually the first time probably in 10 years that I've kind of slowed down. So I've been in diabetes for three weeks and I went back to play one show in in Leeds. Funnily enough, like I'm more tired now after three weeks of not much travelling. I think I actually get energized from like constantly doing things, which is, is it good or bad? I don't know if it's like a bit toxic potentially, you know, always needing that next rush. But like I, it's kind of like what I enjoy. They say, I don't know what the I think it's like a lot of physics. A body in motion stays in motion, right? And so when you when you stop, I think it's like, yeah.

19:04 Like I tried to chill out last few weeks, so I didn't make any music, which that did not feel good. I trained. I still trained like no matter what, like if I'm a death, but I'll still train. But I played three shows, but two in Ibiza's. We're not to fly to them. So like I had some downtime, but like now I feel more tired than ever having this kind of like gap. So I don't know. I think you just make it work, you know, And I think also because I've done this for quite a long time now, you build up the stamina to for the workload. And also my team's great for everything. So like Kurt's a manager, he'll make sure everything now is like he's really protecting my time. So he knows if someone asks him something, he'll really try, and if he can solve the problem, he'll try and solve it, for example, so. Yeah, no, he cracked the whip with me for sure. He's like Josh only has this time. I hope you, I said.

19:50 But it works. Right. I think I think like a lesson in life as well is, is if you give people too many options, then they'll just kind of go back and forth. If you just say something, we can do it this time, this day, yes or no. And like it can work. But yeah, Kurt helps me a lot with my kind of anything that's business related music side. He'll do CEO Hazel will take any meetings, any calls now Simvo. So like my time technically doesn't have to go there. All videos are approved by some of the content team. I reckon I've got way more time than people think now. But like there's definitely times when there is times when it is kind of intense if I've got studio sessions, but. I'm getting better at it, but yeah, it's funny enough right now after three weeks of doing nothing, I'm tired. Yeah, and actually it makes so much sense. And to be to be successful in business, you have to have that discipline. And I like what you just said about kind of like the people who waffle back and forth.

20:39 I there's nothing I can't stand more than like, what's the word? I'm looking for timid, timidness and people who can't make decisions. I'm such a quick I'm someone who I'll make a decision and if it ends up being the wrong one, I'll fix it later. But I just need to like, continue to move forward, yeah. Yeah, I think everyone always says it like you just have to be willing to say no. I think if you say yes to everything, like it kind of sound arrogant. Maybe listen to this like, oh, just if someone says to me now can you do OK? For example, yesterday someone asked can you do a show in where was it Now? Someone asked if they could book me in a certain place, which I wouldn't do and he said can you tell your agent I've emailed them or whatever and just I just said straight up like me, I'm not gonna play a show that because I got plans. Whereas like the old e-mail have been like, Oh yeah, I'm one take on the gym.

21:25 Then it kind of goes on the houses and wastes everyone time. So yeah, I think it's been a bit more cutthroat, but doing it in like a polite and just like a nice way, you know, you don't have to be like rude to people, but if you don't do something, you can just be like, oh, right now I'm not doing this. Yeah, yeah. That's that's definitely something it's that's difficult for people to to do in any career fields. It's hard for sure. So like remix is a great one now. Like it has to do remix a lot of time. I just have to be like just have to be just be kind of cut throat with it. And even gigs, because it's gigs now I get offered. There has to be a point in which like you can't play 30 * a month. And there's things that I'll get asked like do you want to go and do this? And there'll be a week where I've got like there's there's a week in August thing where I've got 4 shows and it's like on a Sunday, someone's like, do you want to go and play this place for like X amount of money?

22:10 And it's something I would have like 1000% done, but knowing I've got 4 shows and then I want to go and do that. You've got to think about longevity, like your health as well. And like saying no things like that as well. Like, it's kind of hard, but it's also important. Yeah, all money is not made equal. Exactly. I learned that. I learned that I, I used to do more like content creator stuff before I just really niche down in music and I started taking these brand deals that were good money, but I was like, why the fuck did I just do that? That exhausted me. It wasted my time. The brand wanted 500 revisions. It was a waste. And I just, I foregoed that because I was like, I just can't, I can't do that anymore. It's taking away from my, you know, ultimate goal, which is, you know, XYZ.

22:50 Yeah, there's a weekend I've got free in August and I got offered a really cool gig the other day and I just thought like right when this comes around, what you're going to hope happens like you sight and Ibiza chilling. I'm following off whenever said I'm knocking Ibiza, but I know after this, when this comes around this time, it's after like a lot of heavy gigs. And I just thought, like, right, you're not going to want to do that. So like don't fucking get sucked into the to the the financial offer for it. Say no, set some boundaries. So that was an example of just two days ago. I had to say something which I would definitely would have said yes to. Normally on paper, you think, why not? But I thought about the holistic kind of thing of like maybe I can make music that week, maybe I can take some days off or things like that. Yeah, yeah, looking at your schedule holistically is so important. You've been around a lot of artists and I'm not framing this as like a dig at them, but why do you think a lot of artists just rely on, I'm going to gig 20 * a month and just have that be my career strategy?

23:42 Why don't why don't they do more things like Synthohub putting together other their own events? Honestly I think everyone can do their own thing. Like I don't think there is a one right way to do it, one wrong way to do it. If everyone did what I was doing it wouldn't work because everyone would be doing it. Like, and if everyone was playing 20 shows a month, so there wouldn't be enough shows to go around potentially. I think it's really cool now in the scene that everyone's doing different things. Everyone's got a different way of like marketing themselves. Like you've got certain acts who are just like work courses on the on this tour. And I'm like, wow, like they play 20 to 30 shows a month. Like I couldn't do that. And well, maybe I could, but like I wouldn't feel fulfilled because I couldn't train. I'd be freaking tired all the time. I couldn't do anything else.

24:23 I don't know. I think it's obviously a smart thing to diversify what you're doing if you like thinking more about long term, you know, if you don't want to talk forever. But the same time, I think there's a beauty of just living in the moment. Like most people's dream, including myself, was to be DJ and artist. I think it's easy in the modern day right now to get so distracted, so kind of influenced to do other things like you might be like, OK, look, he's doing Simpo, he's doing this, why don't you do that? I think some people should just make music and gig like that's what they were they wanted to do. That's kind of what they feel more comfortable doing. I do think there is a, I do feel bad for some artists who like hate doing social media because it is now so important to do it. Like, and I get how annoying that must be. Like I kind of enjoy it because I've said this before, I see it as a video game. Like I kind of, I just like look at the numbers in like kind of fun way.

25:11 I don't kind of get disheartened by it. I just kind of look at it. It's like a fun thing of if somebody got a certain amount of likes, you know, that's pretty cool. Like that must resonate with people. So gamifying it is a way which for me, it just makes it kind of fun to do. But yeah, I don't think people should do well, that's what I'm doing or what other artists do. I think everyone's got their own thing they should just focus on. But at the same time, there's no denying how important social media is. Like if you're watching this and you're not already getting momentum as an artist, you'd be hedging yourself like you'd be, you'd be stupid not to use social media. But you know, if you're already in gigs, things that aren't happy with what you're doing, you probably you could, you could be all right, but I don't think there is a right or wrong way to do it. And like what's happening now, maybe in a few years time, maybe something different.

25:55 Like let's give an example. I've noticed now, like my own social media photos are doing really good again, whereas for a bit it was like HD videos everywhere. I spoke to multiple artists on this and certain people have like started to clue me about this over lunch and he was saying like he notices like phone vids do way better for him than HD videos and I've noticed a similar thing on TikTok for sure. Oh yeah, TikTok. Like the lower quality the better? Slaps way better, Yeah. And I think it's just the thing about what's happening now in a year's time, probably be different. So, yeah, I couldn't really say, to answer your actual question, that like, I think all artists should do what I'm doing. I think it's just finding your own way in this this jungle. Right, right, right. And what feels authentic to you? I think that word's so overused, but it is. But it is the truth.

26:37 Yeah. And social media, I mean, this is an argument that I, that other people have in my comments daily, right? Of like how it's ruined the art of DJing and whatever, whatever. And you know, for me, I see it as you've never had an easier way to get your art out there. Yeah, I agree. I think how I view social media is you always have to get your music heard in some way. So someone in the comments may correct me if I'm wrong. If you were an artist in the 1990s, to get your music heard, you have to go and do something. You have to go and meet people, give them the record. I would suspect someone who's scared to put a video on social media was the same person scared to go and meet someone on in a record shop. Like, just my guess. I don't know what the full protocol was to send demos out. Of course you could have posted them, but like you can technically e-mail your demos now, but like, they get lost in the sea of everything else.

27:24 Like, I think there's always been a way in which you had to kind of go by to get your music heard. And now it's definitely easier than ever because of social media. But I guess on the flip side, it's hard because everyone's doing it. But I don't think it was ever a case of like, this thing didn't exist. It was never easy. I think the problem has changed. Another thing is, is like people used to have to rely on billboards, radio that they were two massive things. Expensive. Exactly. You had to spend a lot of money to get, you know, whether it's promote music videos, whatever it was. I like what you just said. No one's ever said that before. The same on the show, the same people who were too afraid, who are too afraid to put out their music now and social will probably be too afraid back then. To take the record into a shop and cold approach someone like, yeah, I think like for me personally, I'd probably rather just put a video on social media. But like, I don't know.

28:13 But I mean, I would go into a shop. That was what I had to do, but I wouldn't have felt any. Yeah. Example now is I remember when I put my first video up on social media, I was probably as anxious as that as I would have been to go into record shop and give some test presses for a random guy and just like be like, here's my music bro. It's it's cringe, it's cringey. Yeah. I've. I mean, I think about that like there's so many artists now that I've talk to virtually and we stay in touch or whatever, but I've never met in person and even going to meet them at the shows after is like fucking, I'm like, I don't know, I don't actually know you. So it's a weird industry. It's you're constantly putting yourself out there and so it just kind of like democratizes it and I think makes it less awkward because you're just sending it out in the ether versus the 1:00 to 1:00. It's a tough one.

28:56 I mean, it's not going to go away. So anyone complaining about it, I'm like, what is the point? You know? I think the rules of the game just change. This isn't the only industry it changed. Like I don't know the the dynamics of modelling, for example, but I'm sure how to become a models now changed. How to become like a chef has probably now changed. I think like, I don't know the kind of insurance and outs of all, but industries just change over time. Music's obviously changed massively over time. I don't think there's any point really kind of moaning about it. I understand Bill's frustration, like let's be real, like music should do the talking, but there's just more to it than that and it's a business at the end of the day. I see it from both sides, as a Booker, as an artist. People need to sell tickets. I think it's one thing which I think people underestimate is how hard it is to build a profitable club night and festival or whatever like that. I think sometimes people just assume it's kind of all in the artists, whereas like you need the festivals, the club nights to provide the business.

29:51 I think the ones that get stuff the most at the clubs, you know, the venues themselves, I think that's really tricky. But I don't think anyone's got an easy ride. Like no promoter, no club, no artists. It's tough for everyone. So yeah, I mean, I'm not really like super for it all or against it all. I would say, like, I feel comfortable using social media, clearly, but like, do I wish sometimes I just didn't have to use it? Like TikTok, when you wake up the next day and there's videos of yourself from every single angle, Do I enjoy that? No. But it's part of the game, you know? And there's an upside from it as well. So yeah. So with you have a party series of festival, you have an artist education hub, is there any dream project that you would want to tackle?

30:32 There is actually physical products next so. Oh, what kind? I think we'll go with clothing first, like Baker's dozen. I've gone, I've got another business guy day on the go. So I've got Baker's dozen which start off as like an idea to some pop up parties, which I've done in the laundry out things like that. And then I got some merch made which I should have won today. Just some test runs of it and it's ready to go. I'm just not got the I've just been lazy really like people are saying, release the vast release studies. I think I'll go for that. I think that would be quite good one. And then just like something else, I might just kind of say online, but I think physical products will be the next challenge. But it's, it's no joke that stuff like I know like from hearing about entrepreneurs stories, things like that. Shark Tank, yeah, I'm all, when I watch Shark Tank every day, by the way. Yeah, We, I watch reruns and I'm like, what physical product could I create?

31:19 Because then I, I sometimes don't feel like an entrepreneur because I don't have a physical product. Yeah. Think of me, it'll be some kind of drink or food, like I think it could be anything, right? I think the beauty of building an online following is I think I've got 140 something on Instagram. Now, if just 1% of them would buy, I'm not going to a chocolate bar, just a chocolate bar, for example. That's a lot of fucking people. Yeah, I think the beauty of building up an online audience through YouTube tips like Instagram, you can then technically sell anything to them really. Like you've got a kind of starting point. I'm not sure what it'll be. I'm sure someone will clip this and start guessing in the comment section. But we shouldn't. I'm going to. Click, I'm going to click it and help people like this. I'm not too sure right now I've not got the time, but you know over time, if I can like accumulate more money and save a bit like I'll try something else for sure, like techs, fun, partying, fun, DJ, make music fun, but having a physical product, you know, whether it's AI don't know. It could be a like a some equipment for a camera. I don't know or I don't know something. I mean, headphones probably not, because I think you need to have some kind of understanding in tech, I don't think. And I don't think it would be digital. I think it would be something more drink, food, yeah. Tangible.

32:26 Yeah, you could eat or drink, I think that's what. It would be all right. We'll see. We'll refer back to this in a few years. This has been amazing. Thank you so much. You're very welcome.