Do You Actually Need to Chase Bigger Rooms? ft. Deeper Purpose | EF EP 164

0:00 I was so unhappy. I was just unhappy because I've never been about like, let's get bigger, bigger, bigger. It's just I've never, it's just not who I am. Like I have no aspirations to be like a Fisher or Jump Summit or it's not, it's not my DNA, it's not who I am. I never like had dreams to go and play like stadiums or anything like that. My my dream was just to travel the world and play music, and I've done that. I wonder how top DJs actually built their careers. I had to do 15 years of hard work to get any of the recognition that I wanted. Where I saw a turning point in my career is when I came true to myself. From marketing and mindset to networking and negotiation, I'm giving you the tools you need to build a lasting career in dance music. Give them bits of you and your everyday life. You have to change the way you view. The word no.

0:43 Like me, I'm encouraged by it. Join me, Olivia Mancuso, and industry leaders as we reveal what it it really takes to turn your passion into profit. This is elevated frequencies, something I've learned building in this industry. The career you want doesn't come from going viral, it comes from professional relationships. And that's exactly what Track Stack was built for. The industry keeps giving artists tools designed for casual listeners, but Track Stack was built for the professionals who invest in each other. Track Stack Pro puts you inside a network of labels, curators, and artists who are genuine, invested in each other's career, where every submission becomes a contact, and every contact is a relationship that can turn into a collaboration, a booking, or a door you didn't even know existed. And those relationships are yours to keep. No algorithm deciding who sees your work and no platform holding your contacts hostage.

1:38 Go to track stack dot app and use code elevated for 50% off pro for three months. That's track stack dot app code elevated. You said you haven't done a podcast before, but didn't you do something with Gray area? I think we've done a little, a little interview as far as I can remember. I think it was a long time ago, I think was when I first started maybe touring the US OK. I think it was a Michaela, maybe. I think, yeah. Yeah, so that was what, like 2023? Yeah, it was around then. OK, It would have been. Yeah, I think that was with me. I played, we've done superior ingredients. The indoor is me and Josh back, me and Joshua back-to-back. Nice. So I think we've done a little interview around then. Yeah, like A4 four podcast. It's like the first one. OK, All right, cool. I think you it was on that podcast or that that little interview that you must have said your life path, you were supposed to be a farmer. Yeah.

2:24 Is that true? Well, I I was working on a farm, so I grew up in between sort of city life and Country Life. So my grandparents lives on a farm and works on a farm and to escape the city, because I grew up in like a very rough area, I used to every weekend I'd go to the farm, work on the farm, then come back to the city for school, summer holidays. I was always on the farm. So that was sort of my path and I loved it. I loved like I was a country boy at heart, and I still AM. Really. OK, so how does that show up for you now as a touring artist? It's so like where I live now at home, I'm 15 a month, like 15 minutes on a train from central like London, but I'm also like 15 minutes from solid countryside.

3:05 And like my where my grandpa lives, he still lives like on the on the edge of the countryside. So it's like I have a balance and I can dip in and out. So I was very selective of where I lived. That's nice. Yeah. When my parents got divorced a couple years ago, my dad moved to the city and my mom moved out of the state. And I was like, I don't have a suburban respite anymore to go to. Like I keep bullying my dad. I'm like, can you just move back to the burbs or just somewhere so, you know, so I can take advantage of that? I mean, having like haven't, I think it's it's good just for my peace, like my inner peace, like having that just just being surrounded by like I love nature. I always have like when even when I travel, I try to get outside, go sit in parks and just stuff like that just to just touch grass. Yeah, literally touch grass, get grounded because I'm not a heart.

3:52 I'm not like a concrete jungle guy. Like the city life is not really for me. I've tried living in the city and that's central and it's just I was like, I wasn't happy. Yeah, yeah. So what did you actually do? Were you, were you working on the farm? And what were? Yeah, We're working on the farm. So used to like bring the cattle in in the morning for milk in like like rearing lambs, like driving like a combine harvester, like how do harvesting crops like it was, it was everything. Yeah. I was driving like AI used to. I used to drive the combine to like cut the to cut the wheat when I was like 15. That's crazy. Yeah. It's I'm from the suburbs of this area, but I used to be a news reporter in my previous life and my first TV job was in Iowa.

4:34 And I don't know if you know anything about Iowa. I think I have been to Iowa. I think I have played a show there. It's like. Like at the university, I think so, yeah, that would be the only place because it's very rural. Yes, I noticed that. It was like corn everywhere. Yeah. And so that was my first time seeing big farm equipment because a lot of the stories had to do with farming. And I'm like, OK, this is really hard work and I can see how it's very rewarding. Do you have posh friends that you've met like in your life as a DJ? You're like you don't know. Like if they complain and you're like, you don't know. Yeah, I have. I mean, so when you say posh friends, you mean like I've met people that don't understand that life? Like Bougie, just you know for sure.

5:14 Yeah, yeah, like, I mean, it's bad to say, but almost like silver spoon kids, but they that they're very naive to like the, the, the goings on like outside of their world, like the, the, the stuff most people that don't even realise like what farming involves. And like this to to get like your the wheat example, like for cutting oats that that goes into so many food products and stuff that people don't even realise that that far in farming. It's like a really tough industry. No one makes any money in farming like especially in the UK is like a subsidy where the government helps out farmers because the cost of food doesn't add up to what the cost of the farming and like the production of the of like everything. So they have to subsidise the farmers. So I've met a lot of people that don't really understand like the that side of life, like the the hard like working lower class people.

6:00 For sure. Yeah. I think I feel like I'm going on such a tangent, but because it's relevant right now. I mean, you've heard about the Cyclospora parasite, right? That's like ravaging, ravaging its way through the United States. Have you heard about that? It's, it's, I can't believe I'm going to say this on my podcast. It's called the like the diarrhea parasite. And like everyone's getting super, super sick because of this. Like it's affected, I guess Taylor Farms that supplies lettuce to every, everywhere in the states. I. Heard this recently about this. I saw something about a bag of lettuce and they was like oh the CEO and it was like oh it's fine. I was like, we'll get him to eat a full bag of it on the stream or something like that. Yeah, even West End talked about how he had this random parasite back like years ago.

6:46 And so everybody's been chiming in. So there's this big like, push, I feel like for people to start buying from local farmers again. So I do kind of think at least in the states, like the tides are turning a little bit. People care about where their food comes from. Well, you guys that that's a big thing that I've noticed here. Like I, I try to eat like relatively good, but I come here sometimes and I'll still eat good, but I feel sluggish like and like the, the, the, the what you guys go, what goes into you guys food? Like even your chlorinated chicken. And like, it's so bad. Like the UK bans that a long time ago and Trump tried to like, strike a trade deal that we had to import their meat. And the government was just like, no, there's a reason like that. Everywhere, everywhere else in the world is banned. Like certain things that you guys still put into your food and it's scary.

7:31 It's very scary because you can eat as healthy as like, you know, I cook everything from scratch, even dressing so like nothing organic everything and I still feel like all the time you just can't. Escape it. I mean, I think the way around that now is to just grow if you have a, like if you have a garden, if you're lucky to have one. I mean, I did notice there's some allotments like when I drove through Chicago, like, and there was like people outside the allotment like selling like their vegetables and stuff. So I think there is access to like fresh stuff that hasn't been like sprayed and like and modified. So yeah. Yeah, but you have to work hard to find it or it's just a lot of extra steps. So anyway, back to you. Back to you, DJ. Yes, I love I love talking about that stuff though. OK, so you is it true that you like snuck into a club when you were 17 or something like that?

8:21 Tell me that story. So when I was working on the farm, I lived in a little village called Tatsfield and I was 17 at the time. When I was working behind the bar there, they thought I was like, I always, I always looked older than what I actually am. So I was like, I was a barman when I was 17. So you have to be 18 in the UK to drink and to work at a bar. So it's just like a local bar got paid cash in hand. So I met a few of the guys that that used to come in there drinking and they were a bit older, like in the 20s and we'd become friends and they were like, Oh, we're going to go into like the local town, like Croydon, like to the night with the nightclub. Do you want to come with us? And I was like, I'm 17, like I haven't got any idea. And I was like, Oh, it's fine. Like just take one of our friend Ollie's ID. He kind of looks a little bit like me. So then we we all got in the cab and then the whole way that I was looking at the ID memorizing like his address, post code and like date of birth because even the star sign because the bouncers that they asked that sort of thing to try and catch you out. So yeah, we got in absolutely fine. And I stood next to the DJ booth the whole night and I just got become obsessed.

9:19 I've always loved music. I always did and I just stood next to DJ booth the whole night. I wasn't even like interested in like anything else that was going in this club. I was just obsessed with what this guy was doing and he was like mix. It was like R&B and hip hop and he was like mixing and cutting like tracks and like like just layering acapellas over beats of like the intro of the next song. And I was just like, this is sick and I just become obsessed with it. And that was your first like, like you were an open format DJ yourself, right? So what was the path from you getting that first bit of inspiration to you starting the DJ? So, so actually it was that same night, I stood next to the booth the whole night watching the guy for so long. He turned around to me. He was like, are you OK? Because I was just like obsessed. And I was like, yeah, I'm fine.

10:01 Like I was just like, I just love what you're doing. And he's like, OK, cool. He's like, I'm, he's like, I'm Steve. Like nice to meet you. And yeah, that was it. And I stuck around to the end of the night. And then we got we got chatting and like he was a good guy. We really got on well. Like he was just chatting for ages and we exchanged numbers. And then every single week after that, I went down on a went. So it was a student night on a Wednesday that he did. And then he's on the Thursdays as well. And I went down every single week. And he taught me to DJ basically at the club. So he used to play like a six hour set from 9 till 3:00 AM. So the first two hours, no one was really there and he didn't really want to play to no one. So it was like it, I feel like it, it was beneficial for both of us. He taught me how to DJ. So I was going down every route and I was 17. And the club, obviously the managers got to know me. And then they fired the DJ in Room 2. So they were like, you've been here. Like, we know, we know you come DJ. Because by that point, like if he wanted like a Lube break or just couldn't be bothered like 1:00 AM, he'd just like, let me play.

10:56 It's like a DJ at that point. So then the club knew I could play. And they were like, oh, do you want to like, take over the residency in Room 2? And I was like, yeah, let's do it. So that was that, yeah. Wow, that's cool. Do you still talk to him? No, so we, we actually fell out. It was, I'm sorry, we actually fell out. It was, it was a bit of a difficult situation because at the time he, I was getting paid through the guy that taught me how to DJ for his company. So the club was paying him and then he was in paying me. So I didn't actually know how much he was charging them etcetera, etcetera. So I think it was like 2. It was £200 for a six hour set, but he was paying me 100 lbs. So and it got to a point where I spoke to the Darren who was the manager at the club and I was like, look, I've got a kid on the way.

11:47 I was like by this point I think I was 19 by the time I turned round to the guy at the club. I was like, look, I've got a kid in the way. Like I'm doing like 2-3 nights here now. Like can we put the money up a little bit? Like, you know what, I'm good at what I do. Dance was always packed. Like it's like, can we get the money up a little bit? And he was like, what do you mean? It was, I was like, oh, I'm only getting like 100 lbs a night. And he was like, really? And I was like, yeah. So then then it all came out and like, it was a bit of like, obviously in a sticky situation. And obviously the club manager found out. And by that point, like he was pissed off with Steve and he ended up firing Steve and giving me all of his nights in the main room and paying me more. Well, so you got the early lesson on how some of the shady business side works. Yes, like very early in your career. Yes, for sure.

12:33 Not that I'm like happy that happened to you, but sometimes it's like you, you RIP the Band-Aid off on that right away and you got the karma out of it. I mean, some, I think obviously like I was, I was young, I was like I had no industry experience about how like how much people get paid or anything like that. So it was, it was very much like, OK, people are shady that you need to watch your back. So I think I was quite innocent around that point. Like I was very naive and just happy for the opportunity to be there and to play and just do that. But obviously then life catches up with you, like when you've got to kill in the way. You need as much money as you can get your hands on. For sure. Yeah. Wow, so you were 19? Yeah, I was 19 so. Your son is what you. I'm 34 now, so my son's 15. They're the same age. Oh yeah. Yeah, that's 192.

13:15 Wow. Yeah, I think I saw it because I was looking at your Instagram. May or April? April. April. 10th February. So I'm older, I'm slightly older. Being 34 is great though, I love being in my 30s. It's a good age. I feel like it's it's your 20s with like a little bit more clarity and a bit more like direction of like knowing who you are, like where you're going and what you're doing. Like my 20s was very hectic. Yeah, very. But they're supposed to. But like, you're figuring out who you are. And I think you have like this yearning for people to like give you respect because you feel like you're an adult now, but you're you're really not like you're not an adult in your 20s. Not at all. I mean, I did have to grow up a little bit quicker than most people because I'm having a kid for sure. But I mean, it's still like I still like didn't know what, who I was really until like probably like I hit my 30s. Yeah, yeah.

14:00 And like, even in the past like 2 years, like I'd say like in the past year or two years, like the growth that I've had in myself and, and mentally and like clarity, it's like in two years, so much has happened and it's like almost 10 times the amount in two years. What happens in them whole 10 years like my 20s? Like it's crazy. People in their 40s always tell me like, you're going to get that even more. Like I I feel like you fear getting older in your 20s, but then you hit your 30s and 40s. You're like, this is awesome. Yeah, I feel like I've hit my blood. I'm coming into my prime. Yeah, yeah, it's a great, it's a great feeling. I mean, even like I look back at pictures of myself from my young 20s and I looked haggard because I was, I was barrel like, you know what I mean? Like I partied so much more and didn't really know how to balance it.

14:46 And, you know, you just don't take care of yourself as well as. You do for sure the. Older you get. Yeah, I mean that now. Like I can't, I definitely can't party like I used to and it catches up with you. Like I tried, I tried to party for like 2 days. Like I went, I went away like and I was like the morning of the second day I was like, I can't, I can't do this. I was like, no, that's actually an Ibiza. And I was like, I used to go to Ibiza. Like I lived there for like 2 years at one point for 2 summers, but now I can't do it. I used to go there for like a week straight holiday would be out every night. And now it's like, no. Yeah, it's crazy. Or even if like for me, I notice I can turn it on, never in my own home base, but if I go like you know, Music Week or yeah, you know, whatever, I can turn it on for a stretch. But then of course the crash out after. Yeah, you dig deep inside when you need to. You can dig deep and yeah, yeah, it's. Easy.

15:38 When there's so much good music around you 24/7, it's so hard to resist and and say no. Yeah, and as well, like the people that are there as well. It's if you're like, interesting, but I say the music's good. But then it's also the people you surround yourself with and you're going to go and into like hang out with and like, it gives you that extra buzz, a boost. 100% So OK, so going back to you were you did a residency, but that was still open format, You're doing these marathon sets, Who introduced you to house music? My friend Chris Spencer, who's he was, he was a bad influence early on in my life and introduced me to that world. But if it wasn't for that, then I definitely wouldn't be here now.

16:18 I mean, everything in my life has always been like a chain of events. Like I can track back like everything, every, every, every point in my life. Like there's been a key moment where I was introduced to someone that I was in the right place at the right time. And just everything sort of connects. And I can trace it back to like having a job, getting one job. It's like Sainsbury's working on the checkout when I was 17. I can chase everything back in my life like who I met where. Totally butterfly effect. Yeah, it really is So. So, yeah, Chris Spencer was the person who took me on a Tuesday night down to Portsmouth, which is like a little seaside town. And it was a student night. And it was predominantly, it was like a pub. And I walked here and I was like, what the hell is this? And then you drop down these double doors into a dark basement and it was just, it was dubstep predominantly, but in the last hour was house music.

17:06 Oh, dubstep. I didn't even know dubstep exists over on that side of the world. Well, that's what's created dubstep, Dubstep Scream, Benga, Hatcher, Plastician. So that that that they created that in Croydon when I was like young, real young. That's where I'm from. So yeah, that's where dubstep came from. And then sort of you had people in the US that then turned it into a whole different beast. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Because when it was, you know, I, I've told the story a couple times. I got into house music when I was very young because I had like a family friend who was like a Guido, like Jersey Shore type, but who knew, like who knew ball, like he knew Armand Van Halden, you know, he knew like, like that, like that vibe. So I'm 14 years old.

17:48 I know how, you know, I learned how about house music. Then the dubstep of what it was in the States, you know, came into the ether and I didn't like it. And I was like, I'm confused. I, and it was harder to access music back then. You had to really dig if you didn't know how to dig. And if it wasn't on like I, my dad was like an apple stickler. So we couldn't have Limewire. We only had iTunes. And then I reconnected with it later, you know, in, in college. And so I don't know what that tangent was about, but the dubstep of like what was popular in the States was not something I that resonated with. Yeah, I get, I mean, like the dubstep here is there's very like it's it's obviously it's Americanised.

18:32 It's very big and just like I can't even really describe it. But I mean, there's so many big artists here that massive until I started touring here, I've never even heard of like Subtronics and like and like them, them sort of guys like that were doing it. I'd never even heard of them across like across the pond in England. Like it's there's no they did. The gap was never bridged because I think dubstep died out. So the guys from the US never really got toured there. But yeah, it's like, yeah, it's different cattle fish. But obviously Skrillex is is obviously the OG of he sort of took what Scream and all them guys created and he was the one who really like turned it into the beast that that became, I think. And he's still AG. Absolutely. Yeah.

19:13 I remember I saw him open for corn in, you know, corn like the the metal band, and that was actually really cool. They have that couple tracks together because he that's the world he came from. Was was that music? So yeah. And no, I mean, I've had plenty of bass artists on this show and tons of respect. It's a totally different world. And I do feel like, and I don't want bass artists get mad at me for saying this because I'm saying it as a positive. I feel like it's easier to get bigger in that world because the community seems a little more embracing of like being cringe and out there.

19:55 Yeah, I mean that I feel like that community is, is very much you could just be who you want to be. Yeah. There's no judgement. It's like it's very like self-expression that you do you wear the craziest outfit. You show us who you are, like who? Yeah. Who you want to be like. Yeah. Lay out. Yeah. It's just like, and I don't want to say it's easier. Like they don't, you know, obviously being an artist isn't easy, but like, because you can do that. Whereas I feel like so many of these like arbitrary, they're not actually real, but people have to follow these rules of what's cool and what looks cool or whatever. And it's like keeps keeps artists in chains. Yeah, it does to a bit. But I feel like within that community, like people find their person, like find their artists that that like, embraces and makes them feel like empowered in who they are. And they can go and say like dress and be who they want to be at their shows and do that sort of stuff. So I feel like in some senses it's easier to form a community around your music and like have people that like, follow you and like die hard fans, like some of them fans that from that the bass music artist I've, I've noticed that they're just like hardcore fans.

20:52 Oh yeah. Like super hardcore, yeah. Stuff that I've never even like. I couldn't believe it. Like people like screaming like the front of Subtronics and stuff. Yeah, it's like the Rockstar. Yeah. It really is, yeah. We don't really have the Rockstar thing, no on this side, which like I also don't think is a bad thing either. It is a much more grounded yes, you know, and like we just before we hit, you know, record talking about like our heroes. Jamie Jones, Yeah, he's, he's a rock star, but he's the most grounded, you know what I mean? He is in his own right. He's a bit, he's a massive rock star, but he's so humble and chill like in his demeanor and the way that he carries himself that he's like, he's like the modern day cool, like Rockstar. Yeah, yeah. It's just a different, different energy. Yeah, and his persona like this, he he just gives off aura. Like he's got great aura about him. Yeah.

21:39 Yeah. So he's he's quite a shy reserve person himself. But he just, he just doesn't, he doesn't need anything else because his music speaks for himself and his career and like his status, like just oozes aura. That man. Sorry, I could talk about Jamie Jones all day. The amount of love that I have for that man is insane. I I he is a regular. He's a recurring subject on this show because of how many people he's helped. Yeah. And I always say he helped launch my career. It was a video that I did about him, amazing on a whim that picked up so much steam. I didn't know it would. I had like, no followers at the time. And it was, it's he liked it. He shared it on his story. And that changed, literally changed the trajectory of my career. So he just has this way of impacting people.

22:22 He does, yeah. And he's honestly, he's brought through so many great acts. Like for it was actually it was actually Jamie and Lee Foss through hot nature that got me into house music. So if we go back earlier to what said about we went to the dubstep party in the last hour was house music. This is that was when like Hot Natured were just like bubbling, like the band, like Ali Love, like Annabelle, like all of them guys. And I think they just made it was just on the track, Ally Love forward motion and that was that. I heard that song and I was like, what is this like? And from that moment I was hooked and I started following them. And then yeah, so Hot Nature were the first real bands like in house music.

23:03 And it was, I say it was more like that they they bridge the gap. I feel like Jamie helped introduce a lot of people to house music because their music, especially like Benediction and stuff like that, it bridged the gap between sort of, it wasn't meant to be like mainstream or like commercial, but it appealed to that market and it still had that coolness and underground, that sort of fire to it. So it brought a lot of people that maybe wouldn't have listened to house music before into the world of house music. 100%. Agree. And then from there you can then dive off into so many different ways of like finding stuff. So that's that's how that's what happened to me. Yeah, that's amazing. So you were DJ ING for a pretty long time before you even started producing? Yes. Now I feel like it's the opposite, you know, which I think it's great that everyone is taking a crack at producing and, you know, not taking shortcuts anymore.

23:49 But gigs are harder to come by because there's so many DJs more now than there were. Do you think that there is a benefit to becoming a really good DJ first before you start producing or does it not matter? I feel like you do need to like producing is one side of it, but the, the, the thing that's going to make your career is the DJs aspect of the industry. I mean, you can't make a living just out of producing. So like if you're a great DJ, then that's going to obviously I feel like that is a big, big part of it. I mean, if you look at like some of the biggest acts that screen, for example, he's played, he's master DJ ING like he's played so many different genres. You can go disco techno house like dubstep garage and you you go to one of his shows, you're not what you're going to expect, but you can tell he's a master of his craft in that aspect. And Jack master used to be exactly the same, but them but them two like they're they're the two DJs that I was like used to look up to because they can go and play anything they want and they've really mastered the skill of that. But I feel like as an upcoming producer, you probably should just try and go just like, even if you love house, just go and mix some other genres.

24:57 Like just have fun with it. Like download some R&B, download some hip hop, like practice transitions between like different BPM ranges and like looping and like chopping. Like there's, there's so many different ways of like DJ and that people don't really explore because when you're just playing house music, it's, it's obviously it's 44 between like 120 to like 130. And like it's all, it's all very like linear. So I feel like to get that experience of that's messing around with other stuff, it's, I feel like you should, yeah. Yeah. It's it's. Important advice I I mean, people stick up their noses to open format now, you know, but then there's a lot of deejays who make their living doing weddings and stuff. So, so they have that practice and I do think that that's an amazing thing to practice because when you're so stuck in your own niche, like the references, it becomes a circle and you, you have nothing to to reference and to pull inspiration from.

25:48 For sure, and I mean like I, I, I played it, I DJ at my friends wedding the other week and I didn't play house music. I played like garage, like R&B, hip hop and I loved it Yeah, I still love it and I still get a buzz from it. It's, it's, it's just fun and like, it's I, I would like to maybe go back one day and play like an open format. How like open format set in a nightclub. Just do like an old score on B set like set. I'd I'd love to. That would be really. Cool, I was meant to. So I do group cruise every year and last year I'd done AD and B set because I'm I'm a like D&B is like my guilty pleasure and I grew up. This is like chasing status and stuff like 15, like 1415. But I think this year on Groove Cruise I'm going to, they've got an R&B hip hop room which is always popping on the ship.

26:30 So I might ask them. Were you on Groove Cruise 2021? I feel like I. No, I've done the last three years. OK, I feel like I would have remembered seeing you. Yeah. Because you weren't touring in the States. No, I wasn't. Yeah. Yeah, I didn't know they had an R&B room. Yeah. Groove Cruise is a trip, man. I love it. Do you? I love it. Talk about marathon like I It is. We did it once. Think we got a room that wasn't just coincidence, that wasn't near any of the stages, but we made friends on the ship that were still friends with the state. Like, can we nap in your room? Because our room is like, you know, like rattling. Did you have a window though at least? We did. Oh yeah, I can't not have a. Window. So I think when was it on like 3 years ago on my first Groove cruise. So there was a few of us on there. So it's like me, Kyle Walker, Ranger Truko, and they, they gave Ranger Truko a room with no windows. He went down and he's like, what is this? He was like, I can't see him.

27:25 They they flipped him out. But I couldn't imagine being on a ship with no windows. Like, terrible. You just have you lose track of everything. Yeah, I'm not a big cruise person either. That was that was an exception for me. Not even I just not being able to go off like it's a huge ship, but like I just don't want to be around people for that many days. What is it 3-4 days though it's not too bad. It's you leave Thursday. Well, you got on Thursday afternoon and you dock Monday morning. Yeah, the undocking at 8:00 AM on a Monday morning. Is terrible. It's not good. I'll never forget because we did the one right out of COVID and we got on. We got to the Orlando airport because it was not a Miami one.

28:06 It was Orlando 1 and I was not balling back then. So we were in the last row of the plane and across from us were like 3 screaming children. Oh my God whose mom could not keep. Like I felt bad for her but I felt worse for myself in the moment I was just like I cannot. And the flight was delayed like on the tarmac. The worst punishment? I would have got tissue and just stuffed my ears and done whatever I could. That's that's like my worst fear is like, it's happened to me a few times. Like being sat next to screaming kids on the flight. It's the worst. I mean, I have a child myself. Yeah, but I so I can't simplify to an extent, but it's like, oh God. Yeah, but it happens, son, right?

28:48 Yes. Has he been to any of your shows? No, he keeps on asking, but he's obviously not old enough yet. Well, right, He's only well, he's. Like 11. 15-O15 Oh, OK, so he's getting there. Yeah, he's getting there. He's like, so in the UK he's got like 3 more years. Yeah. But I think there, there are certain festivals like in the UK that you can take. Like, so if I play Glastonbury, you can take, you can take. Fisher can take Bobby. Yeah, of. Course, yeah. I mean I think you could be escort with SI mean. I think obviously with Fisher status he can get with a few. More Fair enough, yeah. And I think obviously Bobby's very young, so she's going to be someone's obviously with her the. Whole time. Oh yeah, yeah, my 15. Year old, he'll get curious and just go wonder. He's like he's he's he's very inquisitive. He would go, he would go wondering and like find himself somewhere. Does he like dance music?

29:31 He does. He does. I mean, obviously like this, like when he was growing up, like he'd, it was one of my songs. Like he was, he's a bit, he's at that age now where he's trying to act a bit more cooler. But when he was like 131213, he's like get in the car. He's like dad, can you put Safari like all 1 by 1? Oh, that's a great one. Yeah, he's like know all my music and like he's know the words to it. And I've actually got videos of like secret videos of me like filming him singing in the cards and my songs, which is cute. But now he's a bit old. He's a bit more cool, but I still play him on his stuff. He's like this one. Yeah. So. Yeah. But he's asked me to like teach him how to make music recently and that's. And so he's got, he's got, he's got my old Mac in his bedroom at my house. Yeah. So he's got my old Mac with like Ableton on there and he's been like messed around me, like loops and stuff like that. But yeah, we're gonna get there.

30:14 I don't, I want him to do something creative. But yeah, whatever I want my son to do. Music is I'm like, I don't know, but. Well, yeah, because, you know, all of the the roller coaster of just trying to string this career together and make it a, you know, sustainable lifetime thing. It's a, it's a roller coaster. It really is. It's a it's a big, big roller coaster. And you have this record label. Yes, it's indeed. Yep. I have had in 100 and I'm at what, like 165 episodes? But I've done interviews outside of this. I've done hundreds of of interviews with artists. And I'd say in the past year, almost every guest has had a record label, which I love.

30:55 Yeah, everyone gives me the same answer. Well, I was tired of waiting for labels to release my music, so I wanted to have full control blah blah blah. I What I'm curious about is like what are the good 'cause my audience is mostly artists. What are the good business reasons Like truly business like let's and I'd love to talk about the creative side of your label, but like the business reasons to have one. Does it does it help you like just expand your I as an artist or is it not as consequential? It's a tricky 1. So I mean on the business side of things like financially it sucks, OK.

31:35 All right. Thank you for your. Honesty, yeah, it sucks. I mean, it does. I mean, obviously you pump, I mean like you obviously you pump obviously a lot of money into release and stuff like that. And obviously you spend a lot of, you have a lot of like obviously outgoings and stuff. And I don't normally like so far I haven't really recouped any money on it. And it's just like it's very much just throwing money at something that you're not going to. It returns for the shows. Obviously it pays itself back in that sense. But business sense wise and like to expand my IPI think it helps me in some aspects, like bring people on board to build a little community, because I do want I can to build a little community around around like what I do and like my label. And I'm I haven't really released that much music on it at the moment. I've released a few of my own and I'm like starting to like dip in and like. Is your check with Goodfellow?

32:17 Is it coming out on your label? No. So Jamie's actually got on hold, but he's had it on hold for about four months. Which is why you have your own label. Yeah, it's true. I mean, like, so Jamie, Yeah, Jamie's had that on hold for four months and I don't know, to be fair, he had one of my songs on hold for six months once. That was in like 2020, and maybe actually it was before. Actually it was longer ago than that. It was like pre COVID. Yeah, J he had a song on hold for six months and I didn't see him play at once. And I was meant to go to the Paradise closing at DC10 that have lost everyone there. And I never went because it's a long story, but I never went. And then I was sat at home on my couch like 10:00 PM my phone starts going crazy. But all my friends were there and they were sending me videos of Jamie playing it back to bed of localise. And by that point I'd already like I'd already like released it on Steve Lord's label Viva.

33:07 And so obviously he had it on hold for six months, turned it down, and two months later he played it and I was like, I don't get it, but yeah, so we'll see, hopefully. So it's called Pusha Mouse, me, Goodfella and GAT. Yeah, it's great. It's a cool one, yeah, it's a really cool one, but hopefully Jamie takes it. We'll see, but as again, I haven't seen him play anywhere. Let's put it out in the universe. It's. Manifesting Jamie, if you're listening. Yeah, I wonder, I wonder if you have it. He literally if he had, like I said, he's been mentioned every other episode. Yeah. So, so the label on the creative side, besides being able to put out your stuff at the pace you know you want to what what was the reason?

33:47 You know what? So all of my songs like everything's original, like I, I, I, I very rarely song point of feeling like all the vocals are written by me. They'll most, I say 90% of the the guy vocals are in my voice. Like even the girl vocals like my friends, like my ex girlfriends, like I've everything's like I, I've, I feel like in music, when you make music, it should be like you have some you meant to give something. It's like it's putting your your ideas and like you're, you're yeah, you're giving something like fresh to the world that they've never heard before. That's that's the way that I see making music. And so when I do them vocals that a lot of labels, they never want to take some of them didn't want to take the risk on them because they're like, this is different. It's a bit like quirky, a bit weird. We don't know if people going to like it. And I've always had that problem from day one with like my records that some people believed in them. Like Fisher believed in it when in when I was doing like Demons and Strike a Pose and from Wales and then Lee Foss believed in one of them Underground.

34:43 That's what my first Republican Mars release, John Summit believed in it with experts only for party diva. There's been a few, there's been a few that have like believed in them, but then there's the more quirky ones like Lemonade and stuff like that, which was more like a fan favorite. It, it was like the people that loved my music, they loved that one and it brought in a few new fans, but it didn't appeal to like a mass audience. If you know, I mean, it was more like a niche record to my fans and labels didn't want to take a chance on that one, but I put it out and it done really well. So it's a case of like, it gives me that my label just gives me the freedom to like take like be, do my quirky little vocals, do my weird stuff. And I mean, if you look at like people like Claude Von Stroke and stuff like that, when he was making like weird music and different stuff, he created his own little thing. So that's that's sort of maybe what I'm going for, but we'll get there.

35:27 Yeah, I love that. I I think it that it's so necessary. Claude Von Stroke is such a great example because the the music that he made was very weird, yeah, but it worked. Yeah, as I say, I would say it's like your vibe attracts your tribe. Yeah. And like he's very much like he's like, this is my vibe. And then look at the tribe that he created with it. Totally. Like he had a dirty bird, that label was. It was insane. What a I'll never forget. Probably one of the best times of my life was a dirty bird. It was like a BBQ just during our Basel. I don't even remember what year, but yeah, just the the vibe of the party. I remember it more than the music itself. Or the community aspects of the people. Yeah, I never actually got to go to any. I never actually managed to go to any date about parties ever. Wow.

36:13 Yeah, because I don't think he ever done any in the UK. Probably not. No, he didn't. I mean, but everyone was playing his music by then. There was that. There was that Who's Afraid of Detroit song? I just love that song so much. That was that was like I used to play that in my sets pretty much every set. Like when I was like first started playing house music, it was, I used to love that song so much. I still do. So being in Chicago, typing at Spy Bar, you played at Spy Bar a bunch? Yeah, I feel like. That's Spy Bar once. Once. Yeah. So that was when I first started touring, and then after that I did Prism. But I actually I liked Prism but I asked to come back and play Spy Bar. Spy bars, like I don't. Yeah, I see you at spy bars. Me like, I mean, I think that now I say like with my, with where I'm at in my career, I know, I now know what I want to do and what I don't want to do.

37:03 I came into this like whole industry, like very naive, just wanted to play music and just travel the world and like I didn't really know what I wanted. And now I know like what I want to do. Like I know where I want to play sort of venues. I want to play like I come from a very like when I was playing in London, I used to play a lot of like 2300 capacity clubs like dark Dingy and that was one of my happiest. And so I think I want to go back to playing more smaller venues just for me just to enjoy it. I know obviously the fee's not as great, like you obviously limit on capacity and how much ticket price and stuff. So but I'm not really worried about that. I just want to, I want to play shows that I'm going to walk away from there feeling like I was sick. Yeah. And I can match what I want to play. That I think that's really great advice for the artist listening to this because you know, it's so easy to get caught up on the hedonic treadmill of like bigger, bigger.

37:50 I want bigger rooms more this more that. But if you don't feel as good, like if it doesn't, if it doesn't like satisfy a part of your soul when you're leaving that because I feel that way. How I can relate to that is sometimes I'll get like interview opportunities or something that's like, oh, it's like good money or whatever. But it's like, but this isn't my realm, my world. It's like I'm really good at long form interview questions. But if you ask me to go to a festival and be like, you know, like that pizza are like are like, you know what I mean, like drinking all night or what like I, I, I can't do it. I can turn it on, but it and it's great that there's like money involved, but I can't like it doesn't feel like.

38:31 It doesn't. It doesn't like stimulate immensely. Yeah, and so and so is the money even worth it? Like when it's, you know, once in a while, like there's, there's business decision, but like you got to do what makes the career feel sustainable or it's gonna. Drain. Sure. I mean, like what I say, like when I came into this, like I, when I first started touring, I was with a management team that are a mate and they're an amazing management team, but they just weren't the right management team for me. And they didn't, we never had a conversation about that. What do you actually want to do? It was just like grow, grow bigger, bigger, bigger, more more like. And I was just, and I, I was very naive to it. I didn't know, like I say, I didn't really know what I wanted to do with any of this. I just wanted to play my music to people and travel the world. And at one point I'm not with them anymore.

39:14 But when, when I left them and we parted ways, it was like very much like I took a breather and I was like, you know what? There's no direction. And I, I was, I was so unhappy. I was just unhappy because I've never been about like, let's get bigger, bigger, bigger. It's just, I've never, it's just not who I am. I'm just like I'm, I could very happily go and play like say that 2300 cap clubs for the next like few years that I want to do music and we're quite happy. Like I have no aspirations to be like a Fisher or John Summit or it's not, it's not my DNA. It's not who I am. I don't, I don't, I'm not that I haven't got the persona for that. I'd, I'm just like, I just want to do my thing now. And that's where I'm, I'm more happy than I've been in years because I, I, I realised like what I want and it's like I could, I could actually probably walk away after the end of this year if I wanted to and be happy now. That's amazing.

40:03 I never like had dreams to go and play like stadiums or anything like that. My my dream was just to travel the world and play music, and I've done that. So now I'm like, all right, let's let's dig in and actually like just do what I want to do. And I've got a team around me now that that support that. And obviously they want to, they want to see growth because obviously it's this business and they like they need to earn money. So, but it's just like to making the right decisions that I'm happy with. That's that clarity you get in your 30s. It really is. So sort of wrap up for the artist listening to this, who you know may not understand how to tune into what they don't want. What were the signals and what should they look out for to make sure that they don't stray too far down the wrong path? It, it, I mean, it's very easy to get caught up in the moment and like, obviously having all these amazing opportunities thrown at you and you're just like, yes, man, you're like, Oh yes, yes, It's the power of saying no to the, to the opportunities that are not going to obviously help you in the long run a bit.

41:05 It's it's very hard to to to, it's to in the moment, it's very hard to decipher between them, but it's about, I'd say just trust your gut, but you have to make some mistakes to realise what you don't want. So you have to like, you have to just go for it. And then like, maybe like take A at the end of a month, if you had done a run of shows or at the end of six months, take a step back and be like, all right, I liked this. I like the right list. I liked this and this is what I didn't like. And then maybe work your next six months off of that list and that basis like that. That's why I would say just take a moment sometimes, pull back and assess like how your last six months have gone. I love that, very practical. I think it's the probably the best way to do it, but you have to make mistakes to get there. 100% Well for your first podcast this was pretty A+. Thank you.

41:50 Appreciate it. Thank you for having me. It's been great.