How Festival Lineups Get Picked with Will Runzel (Prodigy Artists) | EF EP 158

0:00 It's really important these days to stand for something. I think maybe even 10 years ago, you tell your clients, like, don't take a stand, like you're going to lose them as your fan base. What I'm noticing from the kids these days is they keep track if you don't stand for something. And so they're like, I want my the artist that I look up to, to have integrity, to believe in the same things, to protest. Look at look at Chapel Rome, look at Billy Eilish, like, yeah, they might be. They might make a statement that they lose some fans, but it really entrenches them in their niche. If artists are shooting for everyone to like you, most of the time, that's a bad strategy. You want to own your niche, your tiny little thing, and then have it grow with you. So taking a stand, I don't think people should shy away from that.

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2:14 That's track stack dot app code elevated. There's so much I want to talk to you about. You have such an interesting background, but to set the stage you have been on the promoter side and the manager side. So I guess my first question is which side do you think it's lied to more? Wow, that's a great question on the promoter for sure gets lied to way more because they're getting lied to. Lied's a strong word, but they're getting sold to from the agents and most of the time the agents are saying, you know, my client sold 100 more tickets than they actually did or my client is worth 50 grand when they're really worth 30 grand because that's their job.

2:58 So I think lying is a strong word, but just saying like, I mean to answer your question directly, the promoter and that's why. For sure they're padding the stats. Yeah, yeah. And that's their job. So it's not not a big deal. But no, that's that's your job as a talent buyer to figure out what's BS and what's not. Yeah. So I want to talk a little bit about your background because it's I'm sure has influenced the way you build an artist now in management. Sure, talk to me about your roots. So, yeah, my roots are as a talent buyer and promoter. I think just coming from that, you know, you, you, you, you look for artists that can sell tickets right away versus kind of maybe more unlike the A&R side. Oh my God, this is like a cracked producer or whatever it may be.

3:51 But generally speaking, because of my background, I'm like very brand focused, very live focused, all that stuff. At the end of the day, the most important thing is going to be the music. But I think just because of like where I started, I always look at it from that angle because that's the angle that I know best. Yeah, well, I I think that it's a really important piece of the conversation that sometimes artists get hung up on on the streams and and that side of things, which is important. But you're coming from this totally different world. How has that impacted how you've built Prodigy and talked to me about your management company? Yes. So first thing is I have my business partner, Steven, who handles the ANR stuff. He handles the publishing side of the business, the record side of the business.

4:41 And I think what makes us great is that we're both kind of experts in different things versus if you have, you know, a management company that's run by one person or, you know, you have someone who, you know, a lot of times there's management companies that don't have the talent that Steven has when it comes to ANR and they don't have the kind of double edged, double sided mirror that I have when it comes to events. So right away, Steven and I found that we were Ying and Yang and that became the backbone of the business. And when people want to go learn about the music side, they speak with Steven. And when people want to dissect a hard ticket offer, you know, at the level of a talent buyer and agency, I'm the one kind of training that.

5:30 And we also have Eric Binman, our Director of Operations, who's as the company's expanded and to give Steven and I more freedom, Eric also can disseminate and train, disseminate that information and train people. And he's, he's fantastic. He's just as good as we are at this stuff. Forgive my ignorance, how do most managers come up It's I feel like your route is non traditional. There's a lot, there's plenty of us that kind of came through the event space. I would still call it. My route is non traditional. I was a kid from Chicago, from the, you know, Evanston, IL who, you know, the first time I drove to California was the first time I, you know, drove over the border to move here was the first time I'd ever been to California.

6:14 I didn't have an, you know, a famous uncle or aunt or whatever who was like in the industry. Some people come up through events. Some people are maybe A and Rs first. Some people are just the homie. And some people get a, you know, an internship at Red Light Management after they leave USC. I wouldn't say anything is typical when it comes to management. I would say it's, it's all over the place. There's plenty of people who started as you know, like JQ Dell was a manager for a long time. He went to Indiana with me. You know, the breakaway guys who did tours with me back in the day. They now have like a management company that they've launched and stuff like that. So I think it's pretty much however you, you, you find it. I think there's plenty of artists whose manager was just like their best friend from high school who like figured out along the way.

7:06 I love that model by the way, I think. That's from high school. I do, I do. If they do it well. I think it's such a rewarding experience. 100% and it's really just about for the young managers listening, it's really just about like being organized, buying the Donald Passman book, everything you need to know about the music industry and then stumbling your way through it. And four, three or four years later, you'll have been in enough situations to guide your act. And I think there's always you got to kind of have the Amphitheatre act and you've got to have the festival headliner to know what to do in those situations. And thankfully for us, we, you know, had a couple artists in that realm for a long enough time, still have one or two right now.

7:47 So we, you know, learned how to do it at the highest level while also coming from my my business partner Steven was kind of a long time manager. He came from the country space. So he was on tour buses with country acts basically as like an intern slash assistant, and he was working with the biggest country managers in the world. And then his first client was, I don't know what's first, I think it was DJ Blend, then Nadia Ali, who you know is a prolific card ticket. She was on the show. Yeah, she's the best. She's like my auntie. She's she's so fun and has just such a wealth of knowledge. And for me, you know, I, I here, I'll paint the picture like this. My first I'm going to sign an artist meeting was with Bixel boys and I, they were my first client.

8:34 Slander was my second client. And I showed up with a white Manila folders and a six page proposal that basically said, this is all the stuff I'm good at. And I looked up what it means to be a manager. And this is what I'm not good at yet. And this is what I'm going to learn. And they signed with me on the spot and we got them signed to Windish with Latini Hughes, who does flume and all these big artists and all these big artists these days from Chicago is or I think he's from Chicago. No, I'll misquote that. And I'm sure he'll he'll beat me up over it later. But he was at Windish, which was a Chicago-based company and and yeah, it was kind of off to the races after that.

9:14 And then I met Steven and almost immediately we were complete. We were everything that that that like an artist would need kind of from day one. And I think that's why we were successful. Quickly. Slander was the next act that it was nightmare that it was Joyride. And you know, we kind of knew what we were doing right away because I wasn't challenged to do the music stuff that much. And Steven wasn't challenged to do the event stuff that much. And right away we were over prepared. We really were. Even in 2014, we were I think experts a strong word. But we really knew our way around everything.

9:55 I knew my way around events and branding. And you know, I knew how to kind of spot when things were BS on offers. And I knew how to the knew how to speak with an agent because I had booked all these shows with all these agents and you know, on when I was coming up as a talent buyer and all that stuff. It's amazing when that partnership just shells I I have that experience. Yeah, I have that experience too in building Chicago music Nexus with my partner. And it's just so helpful when your areas don't really overlap because you just you you own your stuff. I want to talk about the the Chicago of it all because as someone who is who has built this podcast in Chicago and has gotten the advice by very well meaning industry folks, what if you just took that podcast to New York? What if you just moved to LA?

10:42 Like you would be so much further. And I'm like, full stop, This is where I belong. This is my market, this is my home. So I know that it happens eventually, right, People end up moving out, you know, on to greener pastures, whatever. I think that's a whole other side conversation. But you cut your teeth here, You know, working in spy bar, working with it was React, right? Working with React, What did you learn here that you couldn't have learned if you started in LA, New York or Miami? Honestly, the the roots, the the first clubs I were going to were gay clubs and you'd have the the most expensive, like Derek Carter was kind of like the icon.

11:25 Then you would have the artist commanding the highest fees at the queer clubs, which was just like in looking at it in retrospect is like wild. But that's the 2000s of, you know, the early 2000s of club culture in Chicago. They would have massive line UPS. They would have, you know, mega clubs. And that's where I was going like Green Dolphin and stuff like that was the place where we were seeing the biggest DJs of the time. So I was a rap kid growing up. I was a reggae kid, I was a rock kid. So I would go to those clubs, but I didn't really know the culture. I heard the name Derek Carter.

12:05 I couldn't name 1 of his songs and that was like, you know, towards the end of high school and then the summers I went to Indiana University would come back and, and all that stuff. So what I really did and I didn't really understand what the, the, the, what, how, how important it was to like be witnessing kind of history, but it was really the roots of all this. So what I've really applied is just, hey, I know where all this stuff came from. You know, it might be, you know, frat boy dominated now, but that's not where dance music came from. And that's, that's what I learned. But other than that, I mean, I saw a dead mouse.

12:46 I saw a Daft Punk instead of Kanye. It was like kind of a, a fork in the road. It was like Kanye's to the left and dead mouse is I'm sorry. And Daft Punk is to the right with the pyramid. And I went to the right because I had seen Kanye at the United Center before. And I was like, Oh my God, like what? What is this? But other than that, I pretty much got to LA with a very low amount of dance music knowledge. Yeah, experience, I would say not, not not experience, but like knowledge, you have it because it's innate here. Like it's different than working, you know, at the majors, whatever. But do you ever, I don't know, probably not in the circles you're hanging out in now, but do you ever talk to someone and just realize, holy shit, they don't know anything about the roots they don't have? It's so innate to being a Chicagoan. You understand, because you're surrounded like these legends, like walk past you on the street on a daily basis. Like, how often do I run into Jean Ferris? Like, you know, buy a local bakery that is in between US or whatever.

13:46 And I was just like, oh, when I'm talking to people outside of Chicago, I'm like, you don't know, Actually, it's kind of crazy. I totally agree I I kids don't last that long at prodigy if they really don't like immerse themselves. Like one of the things I ask you in your like interview is like, what type of dance music do you like? And and I've seen kids come and go through our company who never really understood the culture and that was a problem. And the culture doesn't I don't need you to like know the history like I do. May I lived it a little bit. You know, I get it.

14:29 But like go watch a dance music documentary and go to go to a race, go to multiple raves, like go BNGA in the if you're live in LA and like nocturnal Wonderland and like go to the house stage and the techno stage, go to the like, immerse yourself in it. And it's kind of an oxymoron because I was that kid who was totally thrown into it and I had to learn along the way. But along the way I became very passionate about it and I almost weird, like my favorite genre of music, if you ask me right now is like house music, like just to like listen to experience. I'm going to go to a concert. I don't know, I just I just really like house stuff. I.

15:13 It's I don't know, like it would be the same answer for me if I didn't live here, if I wasn't from here. But like Jack in house, like true Chicago style house music and then like soulful, like the Ron Carroll type of stuff. Love it. Rest in peace. That is will always be my favorite because it's the one thing that can keep me out late at night and continue to dance versus some of the other stuff that I like. But, you know, at 30, almost 35 years old, like, I need that energy to like, stay out and whatever. And so I just think Chicago is, yeah, it's just the root of it all. It's the Mecca. I'm so you said that you you do interviews with artists, which is very interesting. Wait, what?

15:54 Do you mean? When you when you bring them on and you're chatting with them about potentially bring them on I. Wouldn't call it an interview, but yeah, we're definitely getting to know each other at those early phases. I want to know more about your process, but first I want to know a lot of artists seem to think that like, hey, I'm going to go out and find this person to manage me when a lot of times it's it's the other way around. Like 99.9% the other way around. So what are those things that you're looking for and not like the OK their their music is good. They have motion on social media. They're getting some shows. Those are the obvious things, but what are what are the more you know, the sneaky intangibles that you're looking for?

16:41 Vision, and that can breakdown very basic or very complex part of your vision for your project can literally be like my character archetype. Am I the wanderer? Am I the creator? Am I the innovator? Am I the innocent one? Am I the ruler? You know, is my character going to be one that's along for the ride or someone that's creating the ride? Am I going to be the someone who stumbles into things or am I going to be the one who is, you know, creating a whole new lane? And then what's your primary color? What's your secondary color? What's the font?

17:21 Are you using a font consistently? You know, whatever it may be, just the suit. That's like the basics, right? But I also want someone to come on and say, this is what my color is going to be. This is what, you know, how I'm going to represent myself. This is the story that I want to tell through the music. This first DP is a story through heartbreak. So all the content I'm going to do around it is going to be heartbreak focused. And I want this, you know, song to be in, you know, break up letters and break up content or whatever it may be. And, and this is what I stand for. I think it's really important these days to stand for something. I think many, one of my clients actually taught me this, but many like five years ago, it was kind of really maybe even 10 years ago, you tell your clients like don't take a stand against, you know, politics. So if you're, if you're going to stand up against Donald Trump, then like you're going to lose all those Donald Trump supporters, you know, in the South or whatever, and they're you're going to lose them as your fan base. What I'm noticing from the kids these days is they keep track if you don't stand for something.

18:29 And so they're like, you know, I want my the artist that I look up to to have integrity, to believe in the same things, to protest. Look at look at Chapel Rome, look at Billie Eilish. Like, yeah, they might be. They might make a statement that they lose some fans, but it really entrenches them in their niche. And I also think that if artists are shooting, you know, maybe you're Garth Brooks or you're Drake or whatever, fine, you're shooting for for everyone to like you. Most of the time, that's a bad strategy. You want to own your niche, your tiny little thing, and then have it grow with you. So taking a stand on, you know, the wars in the Middle East or on Donald Trump or whoever it is, like, I don't think people should shy away from that.

19:16 And that's a totally new revelation in the music industry, frankly. Yeah, no, you're right. It definitely the the tides are turning on that. And this this idea that if you're for everybody, you're for nobody is something that I hammer on this podcast in my content when I'm working one-on-one with artists. And it's really disappointing that. So I do like these one-on-one calls, I'd say 98% of the time when I ask an artist, have you thought about your audience demographics and psychographics? And I explain what that means, You know, what are their habits and hobbies outside of dance music? What are their desires, hopes and dreams like? What are like all the elements around them that make them a whole person besides just liking your genre? And these artists have not given any thought to that. And it's like.

20:06 You can't be for everybody. Your music is like, you are never going to go far. And I'd like, I think there's a point in time where when you've gathered enough trust and love from your community, like you can start exploring. You can go a little right, you can go a little left. You have to as, as much as it pains artists because they want to do a little bit of everything. They want everybody to love them. You have to start, like you said, with that core niche and then grow from there. How many times I, I don't understand why so many people don't like that advice. I find that to be comforting because it's like, OK, I don't have to like have this mass appeal. I can stay in my bubble and just work to attract like minded individuals. So a brand, do you do any sort of artist developments? Like do you do any exercises with artists when you're helping work out their brand?

20:57 What does that process look like? So say we sign an artist, This is what we're doing on the 1st day we're figuring out, you know, what is your character archetype? They're just, you just want a Google character archetype wheel. You can apply it to everything I did. I did a series on them. I have. I have one left. Yeah, I love that. Who's your favorite? What's your favorite archetype? I think it all just, it all just depends, you know, just depends who you know. It's really about fit, you know, I don't want the the funny, the the the comedian on the non comedian. I don't want the hero on the person who is the introvert, you know, So it really just fits.

21:40 What's my favorite? Who do you think you are? As a person. Yeah, what's your I? I think I know mine. That was that's a tough question. You're asked really good questions. Who am I? I think I'm a little bit of the, the creator. I'm I'm a little bit of the the ruler. I was going to say that I see that in. You I think, you know, I have strong opinions and I don't ever think, you know, I'm not on top of the game or anything like that, but just the way that I've always moved on a personal level is frankly a little bit delusional. Delusional confidence, I think, which is also really important for being young and I've, you know, toned everything down and try to be as, you know, refined as possible.

22:31 But when I was a kid, I thought I was the greatest and I was going to be the greatest. And I think that was really important and just kind of having that foundation of delusion and overconfidence. And that also comes from being over prepared and knowing that I've done everything I can in this situation to be great. And I can't wait to show everyone, you know, that's kind of my I'm not. I'm not the innocent, I'm not the magician. I'm very straightforward. Yeah, yeah, I got ruler from from you. That was like my initial hunch. 100% we have our client Luke Alexander is very much the ruler. He's like a New York. I wouldn't say a New York version of me because his charisma is on a whole nother level, but we'll just like us talking is like two guys who are no no BS like not like shouting at each other, but like, wait, what about this?

23:22 What about the? That's great. I love that energy. I love that. It's fun. OK, so you do, you do the archetype with them, and then what's? Yeah, so we do do the archetype with them, kind of figure out what their content buckets are. You know, are you going to do studio stuff? Are you going to do podcast interviews? Are you going to walk along the street? Are you going to skateboard? Are you going to meditate? Are you, you know, whatever it may be, are you going to, you know, be at the gym? There's just like a million thing. Are you going to go to the grocery store? There's like a million things that you can do to just end up being content these days. You know, you're going to do fast edits, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then we're we're putting the songs like, hey, this song needs to be finished. The songs, you know, fits for these labels and these artists would support it.

24:06 And you're kind of building out that plan of who you're going to reach out to once the plan is solidified. But those are kind of the things figure out who they are. And again, like I was talking about like, what what story do they want to tell? What's their vision? And then, you know, you figure out how you bring that alive with them. I'm glad you said this because I, again, I feel like I've, I've preached this for a long time and maybe artists don't take it as seriously, but hearing it from a manager that these are the things that you, you need to have an idea about and these are the things we're going to work on day one. I, I think that's great that, that they're hearing it from you. So talk about some other like unsexy things an artist needs to really make it. Besides the streaming, besides the social media followers, are there character traits?

24:56 Yeah, work ethic, yeah. If you're not ready to to go, as you know, managers generally go pretty hard. Like we work a lot, we work off hours and they're always going to not not push their act, but, you know, set deliverables, expect things to be done, being organized and, and being on time, just like any other job, you want to be accountable. And when you have an artist who says, I'm going to get this done by Wednesday and look, most artists, I want to tweak the mix and this that and the other. And like you don't hit deadlines, but that can also be articulated, Hey, I know I said I was going to get this done on Wednesday.

25:37 I need a couple more days because, you know, whatever reason. And so you have a lot of artists who are like totally aloof and you send them an e-mail, they don't respond for six or seven days, whatever. I look at that and I go, I don't know if they're going to, you know, be crazy successful, you know, and everybody's busy. But in the beginning, if you don't have that kind of like, I don't want to call it like corporate mentality, but just like work ethic, be organized, answer things on time, answer emails, get returned to text, whatever, then you know, it's one less weapon that you have Now. If I'm working with someone that is on time, punctual, gets things done, moves things along quickly, I'm like, we're just going to get more out of that. They're moving.

26:23 I don't have to follow up with them three times or my staff doesn't have to give them three reminders. It's just like all those little tiny things add up and it's really a race. It is 100% sprinting marathons right now. And if I see a kid who like has a day job and he's like, oh, I can only like put 15 hours a week, Well, you better be a complete wunderkind. Then in those 15 hours, you better be reinventing house music or bass or whatever. And, and everything you touch is turns into a hit because all the people that you're trying to get next to, they're doing this 50 hours a week. Maybe the only advantage, you know, which is a give and take, is that just on the production side is they're on the road and you're not. But then they're on the road and they're promoting their records on the road and they have that advantage. But just getting to that, yeah, to that point where you have like 15 records finished and like your years planned out and all those things and and planning. I really think that you should, you know, create a library of music and create a library of content and then pick a time where you're like, all right, we're launching. This is it, you know, Nightmare Shima. So many of my clients came to me and said, well, here's 15 songs, here's my whole vision for it.

27:43 And while we execute the 18th month plan, they're working on year 2. And yeah, sure, maybe those records need to be freshened up when the time comes and all that stuff that happens too. But you really want the Super long runway. And if you're a young artist starting right now, build out that runway. And even some kids, I tell them just do whatever you're doing right now. This project is just for you to you're just going to be your practice anyway. So do that for two or three years, but then take everything that you've learned and everything you got wrong, and then do it on the new project. Yeah, I love that. And I also think that's really a testament to for the younger artists who, you know, don't necessarily have time to be making music on the road because they're not on the road because they're not touring yet. They have day jobs.

28:30 It's really kind of like a warning that trends should not be your strategy, right? Playing into trends because if you want to build this catalog of music and you don't know when it's going to pop off or you don't like you have this plan. Isn't that an argument to make your sound timeless, to make it so uniquely you and distinct to you? And not because all I see from my friends who own, you know, indie labels is if I hear one more submission that has the, you know, the the Dean Bros, like what sat whatever, like I'm going to lose it. And it's like, guys like it is so much. It is worth investing time into developing something that is so uniquely you versus trying to get these quick wins. 100%. You don't have the luxury of that. Now, if you're a touring artist already and you want to just put out an edit because it's fun and you have the time, it's a different story.

29:24 But that's that strategy for them is not for you. Sure. Yeah. So I think you've you've helped artists achieve billions of streams. While we're on the the topic of streaming, I want to talk about like the life cycle of of making that happen. I've had people on here say you should be promoting that song all year even before it's committed to a label. I've had people say the post release part of the cycle is more important than pre. And a lot of artists I work with do the classic, drop a song on release day and then never talk about it again.

30:06 So I want to know where you land on this and what is the reality Like talk, talk to me about your artists who have achieved billions of streams and what what is the reality of of the campaign and engine behind that? Well, first of all, my clients all, I don't have a one-size-fits-all policy that there's the will runs away and it's applied or there's the Prodigy way and it's applied. Everyone of every one of my artists sees what you're talking about in their own light, in their own way. Now, if I'm just talking about like my best practices that I try to push on everyone, I think that that I am a believer in the the hit in the we think it's a hit. I think it's a hit.

30:50 The artist feels strongly about it. My business partner Steven will tell you, you can't predict a hit. And I understand that element too. But for me, if I'm looking at, you know, Love is gone or we're looking at Shima's new or not Shima's new song, but Shima's song that's going viral right now, Sunset. Those were records that we felt strongly about. And the, the fact of the matter is, is they both ticked up organically on, you know, whether it was TikTok or one of them was in DJ mode. Slanders, Love has gone, picked up on Doyen. And then we really put fuel on the fire and, and these songs are, you know, Love is Gone is five years old now, and Sunset is is more recent. And we started promoting it again. Shima had some health problems and she wasn't able to market it as maybe we would have liked when it first dropped. But I think that you market a song that you think's a hit all year round, even if it's not getting traction in the beginning.

31:53 And I think a lot of artists do have that. Oh, I don't want to be spammy. I don't think people realize that like 8% of your, of your audience is seeing your Instagram posts. And when you go viral, it's probably getting fed to like 30%. But most of the people that are now, you know, liking and accommodating aren't even in your network. So you should post about a song many, many, many times. If you believe in it and you're able to tell a story and you know everyone, then they say they're, you know, I know every devil's advocate for this whole conversation, of course. And so then they'll say, oh, well, you know, I don't want to just post to post. OK, well, don't go back to your North Star. What's your vision?

32:34 What are you trying to convey? Do you stand for something? Are you political? Are you, you know, telling the story of the innocent or the introvert? And you know, you're like singing the song, but you're like in a hot tub and only your eyes are showing or you're, you know, walking through like a dense forest and you're like looking at your feet because you know, you're doing this like sad boy thing. What? Whatever. I I just like spitball. Just insane content ideas because because everybody wants them and I'm constantly like, all right, let me give you 30 ideas. Yeah about because everyone talks about how hard it is and I'm like, show me your Instagram. I'll look at your Instagram for 10 seconds. I'll give you 10 ideas right now. Yeah, I loved it. Yeah. And, and I don't think artists know and like, I don't think this is their fault.

33:18 But there's other ways to get your content out there that's not on your own page. Like there's burner accounts. There's there's blogs, like all these blogs are pay to play, which is most of them. Yeah, it's which is fine. It's whatever you know, it's, it's a lever you. Got to make some money. Yeah. And it's a lever you can pull. You know, if if your goal is just kind of like ubiquity and it's like I need to get this piece of content or this track out in as many places as possible, even if this thing is not necessarily going to yield the highest return, it's a lever you can pull. Absolutely. There's in real life marketing things you can do. And so, yeah, I just don't think people promote enough. And I also think that they start thinking about it too late, like the songs coming out in 2 weeks.

34:00 So like, I got to think about content. It's like, yeah, you should have been thinking about this honestly when the song was finished, if not before. While you were making the song. Yeah. What is the coolest thing about artists these days is that no matter what, it's AAV project. It's an audio visual project, period, right? If you're like, oh, I just want to make music, the music industry is not for you. Like or just become a producer and produce for other people. If you're saying, if you're sitting in your studio saying right now, oh, I just want to make music, then be a musician. Don't be an artist. Because we had album covers and these big budget music videos and that whole area era is behind us. But it's still an audio visual project. It's never been more.

34:51 So if you cannot come up with the story that you're going to tell or the way that you're going to portray your music online, then just be a music producer. That's the sound bite it is. It is something I hear on a daily basis. So I just want to make music. And my response always is to, since I'm not a musician myself, is don't you think the florist just wants to make flower arrangements? Don't you think the plumber just wants to collect checks? Don't you think that anybody who owns any business just wants to do the one thing they love? Of course. But that's like, just because you're a musician doesn't grant you like this special right to just do your one thing. But love it.

35:32 Yeah, I love, I love even the parts that I hate because it means I'm learning like, and I, you know, I, I, my journey is very similar to the artist journey. So is yours. You're a creative entrepreneur. You built a business. It's all the same, it's all the same at the end of the day. You know, after running like 3 very successful events with like AP and L that had the right numbers but wasn't as advanced as it need to be, I finally locked in and I've like created a real PNL and I'm tracking finances the way they should be. And I'm like, I hate this but I love it because this makes me more powerful to know this stuff in and out, you know. But I think a lot of people just, they don't. A lot of people are lazy.

36:19 And not just artists, people. People are lazy. Look, we have to give a a moment of silence and a a prayer, whatever you want to do for Oliver Tree, who was not a close friend of mine, but an acquaintance. Me and my wife absolutely love all of his music and he passed away over the last couple days and in my opinion is one of the greatest artists of our generation. Do you think that guy didn't want to do content? And sure he had the Atlantic Records budget and all that stuff and all the new zany things that he was doing was very high budget. It did not start that way in 2016 when him and Wheaton blew up off their their that single that they dropped. He was the most creative guy of all time. He was begging to do content.

37:12 Oh man, I can't wait to make a video in my backyard about the new song that I made. So embody Oliver Tree in everything that you do right now. Or this might not be you because that was a guy who from the first day was woke up every day extremely excited with his $0.00 budget on how he was going to make, you know, videos and content and all that stuff. And then guess what? If you do all that for free and, or on $100 budgets or whatever, then Atlantic will probably call, come call in one day and say, all right, here's your 30 to $50,000 music video budget for every single song. And you're going to go to Estonia and ride on tanks and do all the crazy stuff.

37:59 Oliver did. But it came from a deep passion for the, the, the, the video side of the business to then become, you know, a Tommy Cash or an Oliver Tree or, you know, any of these people who are doing these totally zany, you know, music videos and Die Antwoord, whatever it may be. But you gotta and, and and it and it has to come from you. I remember when we were managing Joyride and for 400 bucks and a lot of movement on social media, he got, he stood on a vintage car with his hood up. He went to Home Depot and bought flares. And he literally just stood on top of a car with a flare with these crazy bikers on the LA river, no permit, no nothing. And these crazy bikers that he had just, you know, found on the Internet to get excited about it, and they're doing, you know, Donuts around the car.

38:55 That was the whole video. That's amazing. I'm really glad that you, you brought up Oliver Tree because you know, there's just so many people chiming in about how his art has impacted them and it's a, it's a great point that you just made. I want to talk a little bit about the live events industry now because you have so much experience in that realm. Again, we're going to leave music and social media. Well, maybe not social media, but the music aside, right? Because we know, yes, you have to have good music, you have to, you have to be making whatever. But what is really happening behind closed doors when festivals are building out their lineups?

39:36 What else are they looking for? Because I know there's a lot of criticism of of how these lineups are built. And I think some of it is valid, especially when it comes to diversity issues. But outside of that, there's other, you know, considerations like risk, right? Like, what is like, who's a risky artist to book? Who's where are we going to kind of like make a choice here that's a little bit out of our zone of comfort? What's happening in those conversations behind closed doors? So most of the time they're just looking at hard ticket history in the market in the last 18 months, how many tickets did you sell? All right, great, let's have definitely an element of curation. You know, we want house, we want hard stuff, whatever it may be. We want dubstep, you know, pertaining to the market. You probably have a street team and they're telling you all, you know, the kids aren't listening to bass music anymore, they're listening to house now.

40:30 Or the, you know, the kids are listening dubsteps coming back around or hard tech knows the new thing, whatever. So you're definitely getting as many like surefire ticket sellers that are just based purely off the numbers. But then maybe you have an act like holy priest, you know, you don't even or, or or restricted you don't even I mean, now they have some hard ticket history, but a year and a half ago, no one, you know, knew how big they were in the United States. And I'm sure they were commanding insane fees because the the the motion on the Internet was crazy and promoters were getting tweeted at hey book holy priest, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And these are like, you know, harder techno stuff, which is kind of the genre of the day right now, it seems. And so, you know, so you're, you're like, all right, I'm, I'm building 70% of my lineup with like the surefire ticket sellers that we know how many tickets they sold. And then we're getting, you know, the restricted or the holy priest or, you know, whoever.

41:26 I, I hate models 3 1/2 years ago who we don't really know, but they seem really hot Clay Kooster, etcetera. And then I think the smaller acts are frankly artists that the promoters like that, they just think, oh, this is, this is a cool project. This is a, you know, promoters, talent buyers. Like that's where my creativity was based in was the, the, the, the front half of the day, the, you know, the early acts. Oh, you know, I just want to support this act because they're incredible, you know? Do you have any, anyone that you put on that later blew up that you're proud of? I'm sorry. Yes. OK. Yes, Yes, yes. Why'd you apologize?

42:08 Because I there's a lot. Yeah, because. It's like it's I, I meant to I, I, I because there, yes, that is how I got my reputation. OK. That is, can can you do like a quick rolodex? Zedd, DJ Snake, Flosstradamus, Dylan Francis all booked their first LA shows. First or second LA shows we booked Zed for you know, I guess I shouldn't say that he, I doubt he cared. It was like 10 years ago, but we booked Zed for like 2500 bucks. Wow. You know I booked Cassian and I were joking about this so I'm sure he won't care. I told I was texting with Cass the other day and I was like, yeah dude, I booked you for $400.00 for Dimmock Tuesdays and he was like, not well, you booked me for $200. For to be fair, there's probably $400.00 in today's money. Yeah, no, definitely more with how crazy inflation is. But yeah, all those, all those guys, The magician, his first show, Who else?

43:06 Gorgon City. They only sent one guy. Ben Spritz called me, said these guys are great. I had already heard Thor. I was so into them and he just called me one day. And you know, we booked Gorgon City's first show for 1000 bucks. They open before Jason Bentley, who's like the KCRWDJ. And, you know, now we see the career that they've had. Yeah. I mean, we, we a lot of firsts. I booked Iggy Azaleas first show. Yeah. Because I was, when I came over from Chicago's to work for Steve Aoki. And he wanted me to, I basically went from intern to running all of his events. And that was kind of my path.

43:46 Like that was his plan for me and Dimmock. Tuesday's was like a slog. Was like 80 people were showing up. They're booking the DJ's last minute and so that's when I grinded and really learned house music and electronic music and all that stuff and I had all these advisors. I had Eric Vogel, who was at Dimock at the time, he's a manager now. He was giving me great advice on who to book and all that stuff. And yeah, it turned into Dylan was the sound guy at Dre's and Dim Mock Sundays was at Dre's in Hollywood. So he was literally the sound guy on Dim Mock Sundays.

44:27 And then we gave him yeah, or I booked Bauer's first show. He opened for Sinden and once he was done, Sinden didn't have as pull as like the Super hot act and we booked Bauer right when Harlem Shake came out and everybody kind of left after like he was done. Wow, which is I've actually never seen that before. That was totally bizarre. Wow, that's. That's just so cool and inspiring to show what kind of impacts that you can have if you stick it out in this scene long enough. Cause a lot of behind the scenes people like people who want to be managers A and Rs like who don't want to be artists. Listen to this show too. And I think like you actually can impact real change in a relatively short amount of time compared to like climbing a corporate ladder because you can just do like there's so many more weapons that you can pull from your arsenal versus a corporate is very like, you have to fit in this box and then this box, then this box.

45:22 Yeah, and pay your dues. Whereas you can be a lot more nimble and it's such a relationship based industry. I with the time we have left, I want to talk about artists kind of owning their IP now. Artists LED festivals, activations. I'm a huge proponent of this. I tell everybody to book themselves. If they're not getting booked, throw your own event. You can do it for a couple 100 bucks. It's a write off. There's endless, you know, benefits to it. And if you fail, you learn something and you're probably not big enough to actually have that stain your career in any sort of way. What are you noticing? What trends are you noticing with like artists leaning into owning their own IP events and stuff and and just your thoughts on that?

46:05 Yeah, I mean, I think it's brilliant, whether it's labels or festivals or event series or, you know, any of that stuff. Obviously their IP is also just their act, their band, their DJ, whatever their, their name. But private equity has never been as active as it is now in dance music. Yeah, master recordings are an internationally recognized asset class. So even if you're just putting a couple pennies, you know, behind the boat with, you know, you're putting out a song for your, your buddy who you like, you know, eventually you could sell that to private equity in 10 years, even if you're just, you know, a small act.

46:47 That gives me like, oh God, as as, as I listen, I'm an entrepreneur. I I believe in capitalism in many ways, but private equity. Private equity ruins everything. Everything and it's like. Jersey, Mike. It ruins every food place. Every veterinarian, every dentist office, I think like almost everybody agrees except for the people who work in private equity. Are you on TikTok? Yeah. Do you see? The PE private equity guy, the character, Yeah. He's he's. From Chicago. I think he he's from, he went to like new. Trier or something talking about I always see him make fun of New Trier yeah me and my Co manager Hannah Kang I went to Evanston high school and she went to New Trier yeah so I always whenever he's gone in New Trier I always.

47:30 It's I went to Stevenson so like similar vibes. I love him so much. He's hilarious. So funny. The the, and it's like literally proves the point that the only people who like private equity are the people who work in the industry for obvious reasons. But yeah, no, I think, I think it also just makes the case for like we've never needed more independently operated brands now more than ever. Absolutely. OK, so couple more questions for you. We touched on the mindset stuff, but what makes an artist unmanageable? And like, you don't have to say names, but have you ever had to let someone go because you're just like, this attitude is not conducive to a successful environment? I've never maybe one time, but it's it's tough. If you really see someone's creativity, you'll put up with a lot, frankly.

48:26 But I think unmanageable is kind of what I was talking about earlier when they're just not making deadlines and you know, maybe they're a tinge of rudeness, you know, for the staff to the point where you're just. Like, you know. The juice isn't worth the squeeze. Entitlement. All that stuff I really do not well work well with. Can't do attitudes and sometimes I get fired because of that. I am an eternal optimist. I am someone who thinks that you can speak things into existence, you can manifest things by writing things down on a piece of paper. All of this is happening on a quantum level. And when you say you can't do something, you probably won't.

49:09 And you're you're, you know, subconscious will believe that you won't. It'll just make it harder to do. You'll get in your own way, etcetera. So if I have an artist who has tons of excuses, well, I can't do this because, you know, XY and Z, that's typically a huge red flag where I kind of take a step back and just say, all right, cool, you know the answer to everything. You know why you can't do everything, Then we'll just kind of see what happens next. And I tend to roll really well with people who are, I can do anything. Let me just speak it into existence. Let's go. And it's also not about saying, oh, I'm going to be the greatest, I can do this.

49:50 It's about being over prepared. And just, you know, if you're going to say that you're the greatest and we're going to speak this into existence and we're going to manifest it. All right, great. Now what are the steps that we need to do to get there? And let's make sure that we take every single step out of the next 5 steps. We don't do three of them and expect that, hey, we should be there. No, we need to do every single step. We need to over prepare and all that stuff. So I love that. That's, that's, yeah, just people who have excuses are are that's that's what, that's why you feel dirty around private equity. I feel dirty around people with excuses. Yeah, hey, I'm, I'm a former excuse maker. I really in the beginning of like my adult life, I was really unsatisfied in a career.

50:32 I was a news reporter and I thought that I know your. History. I looked you up, thank you. I know what post you're talking about. Yeah, I, I, well, I've, I've gotten fired from TV news jobs. Well, that's, that's a Side Story. I've. Got the picture of you standing out in the rain in my. Head. Yeah. I went through a lot, man, and there was good moments, but I was very much like my news director would tell me something. And I think it was just also like a streak of like being a rebellion and not wanting to, you know, play ball. Yeah. But I went from like a no can do like to a can do person. And my life changed. Like I am a case study in believing in manifesting. It was actually my husband who, like got me into manifesting. Like he taught me about it. Vision boarding, writing down your goals. Seems so like, yeah, it's it's transformative and and it's such a simple, it's free.

51:23 Anybody can do it. OK, last question for you. What should smart artists be doing right now to position themselves? We're halfway through the year. Ibiza season's underway. Like, you know, literally it's June. I can't believe it's June. What should artists be doing right now, from what you've seen of the landscape of dance music, to position themselves for an amazing let's say, 2027? Well, I'd really say an amazing 2028 and it just depends like what type of artist we're talking about here, but I'll just try and speak as generally as possible. The festivals are, you know, being booked right now. So if you're planning right now, you really need to plan for 28, you know, some touch point things that you can prepare for Ade Ultra.

52:14 You know, those things sound like big expensive words. They absolutely are. But maybe it's more about figuring out what your sound is, is a more European or a more American sound and being prepared to to try and you know, spend the next eight months making your way networking towards those DJs, creating a name for yourself on SoundCloud or Spotify with the sounds that they might play. So that you know, if your song, if two or three of your songs get played a bunch during ultra week, you're on. You've got a 282028 career that you know, that's going to be robust in that you're probably going to play the festivals or you're going to start your headline touring or whatever it may be. So I think it's really just about having an 18th month outlook on whatever you're doing, Vision, vision board archetype, you know, the colors you're going to use, the story you're going to tell the, the, the, the music that you're going to put out.

53:12 You know, another great example that I always like to talk about. Everyone says, oh, you know, I want to be a multi genre artist. It's very hard these days. If you look at all the biggest acts, some of them have two genres. You know, Millennium is like future bass and dubstep Cascades. Just house Fisher's just house Rufus to souls. Just they're like, you know, new disco sound excisions, just dubstep, you know, whatever it may be. So, but Skrillex is the best example on how to move through genres. Row step for five years. And I'm totally getting the years wrong, but just patronize me here. Row step for five years, Jack you for five years, UK garage for five for the last, you know, 3 or 4 years with Fred, right. And he didn't really, he didn't drop a Jack U pop song during the bro step era.

54:01 He he he may have dropped one bro step like remix on SoundCloud. I'm sure the Skrillex historians will, you know, correct me on this, but I don't I haven't seen a bro step song come out in a while and he hasn't gotten back with Diplo and done like Yo, let's do like a let's drop a Bieber track in the middle of like my UKG thing. No, he's focused. And that is the model that every artist should use is go be the king or the queen of one genre after two, you know, or a blend of two genres for two, 3-4 years. OK, then move into something else once you can bring your audience with you. Another thing that I always say is I call it the cafeteria theory. If you're a young act, an artist wants to or I'm sorry, a fan should be able to go to the sophomore cafeteria and say I just discovered this new artist.

54:55 They're better than so and so they stand for this and their brand looks like this. And if you can't say that in like 20 words, you don't have a product that people are going to be able to go sell your product for, You sell your product for free, right? Unless it's sellable that quickly. Yep, that the good old elevator pitch the. Good old elevator pitch. Works every time. We need to do a Part 2 next time you're in town because like, this has just been incredible. Thank you. I loved it. I, I was so excited to come on and I think I'll probably come do your thing in November and maybe we can do it then.

55:35 Oh, we got to talk about that. Yeah, let's turn these cameras. Off I'm I I'm I'm married, I have a son and everything just takes a lot of decisions just make a lot take a lot of. Time well, I completely I don't have a kid for. Your patience. Yes, I don't have a kid, but I have two dogs and and a husband. And that's why when like people ask, are you going to be in Ibiza this summer? I'm like, dude, moving my family unit to like, like it's, you know, it's. A lot. Yeah, it's a different game once you start adding. Those things. It's a whole 11 is 1 is a toll and it's I got a mad, you know. Anyways, thank you so much. Yes, thank you. It was amazing.