"Going Viral Changed Everything": Lawrence James on Breaking Out of Your Local Scene | EF EP 121

0:00 Opportunity is like within the DJ and the ice hands for like the first time ever. Like you have almost complete control. I think you should put yourself out there all the time because like I say, you never know where it's gonna end up. Never wonder how top DJs actually built their careers. I had to do 15 years of hard work to get any of the recognition that I wanted. Where I saw a turning point in my career is when I came true to myself. From marketing and mindset to networking and negotiation, I'm giving you the tools you need to build a lasting career in dance music. Give them bits of you and your everyday life. You have to change the way you view the word no. Like me, I'm encouraged by it. Join me, Olivia Mancuso and industry leaders as we reveal and it really takes to turn your passion into profit. This is elevated frequencies.

0:51 Welcome to your weekly elevation, your dose of real strategies for real results in dance music. I'm Olivia, And today we're diving in deep with Lawrence James from Crossfader, one of the most influential voices in DJ education today. Lawrence has this incredible story. He went from being a local club DJ to going viral with his mashup videos, which led to him touring the party islands and eventually finding his true calling and artist development. Now as marketing manager at Crossfader, he's helping shape the careers of thousands of DJs worldwide. And what I love about this conversation is how Lawrence breaks down the real shifts happening in our industry right now. We're talking about why going viral once changed everything for him. The platforms that are actually moving the needle for artists in 2025 and why he believes networking is still the most underrated skill in dance music.

1:41 Plus, he shares some brutally honest advice about what DJs are wasting their time with and and things that really don't matter anymore. And I tend to agree with him. So if you've ever wondered how to break out of your local scene or what it really takes to build a sustainable career in dance music, this conversation has some answers for you. Let's just let's just start at the beginning. For my audience who doesn't know you, you were a DJ before you were all the other things and wear all the other hats. So how did that start? Yeah, I've been DJ and best part of maybe 1516 years. I started like most I guess club DJs in the UKI started really small local bars, restaurants, eventually got into clubs. And when I was DJ and initially it was a lot of work that did the, the clubs were thriving.

2:27 It was a lot of nightlife and it quickly became from, you know, learning to DJ at 16. And I think by the time I turned 18, maybe had like four or five solid residencies early on. And in Leeds, UK where where we're based quickly grew like a good network of DJs, promoters, that kind of thing. And then stuck at that and did club residencies pretty much full time from that's turning 1819 started moving into events around 2021. And yeah, was was doing really well. The club scene was popping the the events was really good. It's very easy to sell tickets, a lot of student gigs and that kind of thing.

3:10 And then it came to a point where it was before COVID, it's maybe 20/17/2018 where everything is kind of stalled, right? So I kind of like Lost Love. I was DJ ING 7-8 nights a week, 7, you know, sometimes eight nights a week doing the kind of the same thing in the same area. I just like fell out of love with it and like really quickly, like lost a few of the gigs. I remember one time like overnight like in a week, you know, I went from like 8 gigs a week to like 1 and I was like, well, you know what? Something I'm missing something here or I've lost love for it. Like where where do I go from here? And then at the time there was a couple of DJs popping up doing DJ content just on this was on Facebook, right? So I come across them and they were doing crazy numbers and he was one of them where I was like, I, I think I could like I'm as, I'm as good as these guys.

3:55 I, I don't know why I don't really sit here and be bitter about somebody getting a load of views and not doing anything about it. So I think I went out and bought like a 300 LB camera and just filmed something. Oh, it was like a routine. It's like a garage routine. Just filmed something. And I remember uploading it to my DJ page. I just started and then like woke up the next day and it had like 80,000 views or something. I was like, oh this is interesting. I didn't even know what viral like really was, what it meant or anything like that. I was like this is interesting. So I carried on making like just these like mash up videos at the time were really popular. And so I kept making videos and next one did 100K views and then one of them did like a million.

4:37 And then all of a sudden started to get like an influx of like agents, club bookers, promoters that are outside of the realms of where I usually DJ, right. So from London all the way up to Scotland, like the whole breadth of like the UK. So then really started in gigs off my my own name as like a as AI guess I've like a viral DJ started putting events on a broad in like the party islands, like Ibiza, Zante, Malia. I started doing that quite regularly, flying, flying across and and putting on like my own events off the back of it as the as the brand grew and and yeah, that was really, really, really fun and exciting. So to bring that back to like where crossfaders that was really fun and exciting and I I felt like I kind of ticked that box for myself, knowing that I could take it further than just like the local clubs.

5:26 But at the same time, I think I was maybe like maybe like 292829 and I'd had it like a young family and I was like, I'm actually not enjoying the sort of touring of it. It's quite lonely. You're always going to tease party islands, people partying to whatever in the morning and you you're going to fly next day with no sleep. And I was just like, maybe this is not kind of for me. So running alongside to that story, Jamie, who who started Crossfader was also doing well coming up, had some followers on Instagram with Crossfader on YouTube was was pretty successful. And I was like, I remember texting on my flight saying, let me come and see what was Crossfade. We were friends already. I was like, let's see what Crossfade is about. Like I make good content. Like you need content.

6:08 Let's just get in a studio and, and, and take it from there. So that's when I text Jamie came to Crossfader and started making some content. That's why, yeah. Wow. Well, we've we've talked about this before and it's both. It's a subject that you and I both cover ad nauseam. Going on the Internet was like your tool to break out of your local market. And I really can't happen that easy, which is, you know, we can get into the whole mindset set of it, all of people, you know, hating social media, whatever. But that that was that unlocked the path that got you to where you are now. And you like had to go through those things and realize that maybe touring life wasn't for you.

6:48 But it all it all came full circle. So your career at Crossfader, So what you kind of started off what like as a freelancer just testing the waters? Yeah, totally. So I started doing just the odd video. So it may be like he'd get some new equipment. I'd film a routine. I'd I'd make something fun for social media. At the time they had maybe like 4 or 5000 followers on Instagram maybe I'm guessing around maybe like 10 to 20,000 on YouTube. But that was, you know, goes good, good for good for them. So I'd maybe film something, maybe a routine like coming for one day a week. And then I just really enjoyed like the collaborative process. It was something I was already doing, but with other people there to like bounce ideas off and get inspiration and just have a bit of a different experience than making DJ content yourself.

7:38 And then it sort of grew. I wanted to then start talking about like the your career in DJ and real, you sort of start to go, OK, yeah, I have a lot of knowledge about this, so let's so you can. We're never short of ideas. It was like, what can we do next? What can we do next? I mean, we were just a basic, a content like machine in the early days of Crossfade. It was very much like how do we just like provide value and DJ education and sort of build from there? And we were fortunately enough, it was just a bunch of creative people. It was me, Jamie, there's Danny James was on the channel, Katie's behind the scenes at the time, just making all like the front end content. And you know, like, like any business, it's sort of like we trust trying to like throw things at the wall and, and make it stick. But I think a real turning point with a business was we were doing pretty well.

8:30 But like COVID, like I know it was awful for most people, but as a business, they kind of like put a, a marker for us because our business obviously went did really well because people are at home trying to learn how. To do J right, right, right. The kind of business kind of exploded in time and we just then capitalized off it. But I think like you say, when you're, when you're like doing something, you don't realise the benefits that that holds for you, like long term, like, you know, making the videos and making the content. I was just trying to become a better DJ and make more money and travel the world. And then now doing what I do at CrossFit, all of that time spent alone in my own, in the in my bedroom or studio, just just have the tools and the knowledge to do something else with it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

9:13 I'm a firm believer that like every experience is a lesson. So I don't regret any parts of the journey because you wouldn't be where you are now if it weren't for all those things. Yeah. And I mean, you're, you were self-taught at this marketing thing too. It was just trial by fire, right? Yeah, and, and also like, you know, it was a lot of fun. Like it's, it's, it's like experimentation and you're trying things. And I think like, I think DJs really like get that right, because you're, when you start DJ and you've, you've got this thing in front of you. How are you going to make this work? If you start making music, you open up a Ableton screen and you, you know, you've got to figure it out. And if you're, and it's like a, for me anyway, it's like a, it's a, everything's like an opportunity.

9:57 It's a fun thing to like learn and get something out of it. And I think that that's what we try and tell a lot of our students is, you know, one of the biggest hurdles is like social media marketing influencing, try and reframe it to, to make that creative process just like making a track, just like DJ ING. It's just like, how can you make it as creative as possible? Like what are the tools you can do to make it as possible? And we try and do that in like our everyday, like workflow is like, you know, how, what fun way can we teach? Because obviously like teaching DJ ING is there's very, there's a lot of fundamentals, but how you teach it, everyone will resonate with it differently. If you say it this way, this person gets it. If you say it this way, this person gets it.

10:38 If you put it on TikTok, it's going to look different to how you tell it in on YouTube in a 7 minute video. So I think yeah, being, being learning something for yourself and being self-taught, it holds a lot of weight and going and exploring something, you never know where it can take you. So a funny story. So we've just hosted Rise DJ competition, so someone's going to win a set of Rise, which is in the Alps. It's a snowboarding festival headline as a they had like chasing status last year. It's a huge festival. So we're just about to launch. We're just about to like announce the winner in a few weeks. But the best thing is, is we've now, we had like 1500, yeah, 1500 entries to the, to the competition. And we've now found like maybe like 100 DJs that we now want to like connect with, maybe like collaborate, invite to the studio for a mix to do some social post with because the talent is so good.

11:30 So then putting themselves out there, the the goal might not be what they wanted initially, but they're going to benefit from it just by putting yourself out there. Yeah, You know, somebody put on threads the other day something about like, no, thanks, I'm not going to enter a DJ contest. I'd read. Did you see that, that did you respond to it? No. OK. I thought I couldn't remember who I knew that respond to. Now I get if you're at a certain point in your career, like, you know, but we're running a contest for to win the opening spot for Chicago Music Nexus Pre Party. And it's like, and people are super excited about it and it's a great room to be in because who's coming to Chicago? Chicago Music Nexus, managers, agents, labels, like all the people that you want to hear you play. So I'm assuming you feel pretty strongly about DJ contests, like in a positive way?

12:23 Yeah, and I've been to contesting before and he was actually really interested in seeing the effort, like how people enter as well. So I've entered competition before and and won a couple like while ago. And I would put so much like effort into it. Like I was recording vocals from like, I actually remember taking a a recorder out in the street to to, to play my mix live on the phone and how people respond to it. And then I put that like in the mix so. I was. Seeing what kind of like effort level people had. So people would send in a mix like that was like 6 years old. So I'm like, well, you know, I it's like he kind of entering but he kind of not.

13:04 Whereas people some people like were tagging us everyday brand new mix and they put it on YouTube, they put on Instagram, etcetera. And that goes a long way, you know? Yeah, I think you should. Good. I think you should put yourself out there all the time because like I say, you never, ever know where it's going to end up. You just remind me of a story, you know, Danny Howard on Radio 1. So we used to play together sort of locally where we were and he entered it. He entered a competition. I can't remember what a competition was, but he didn't win it basically. But off the back of that, somebody liked him and then offered him a trial at like Radio 1. So they didn't win the main competition for whatever it was, but they liked him and, and got what he was about and understood his music history and that kind of thing. And then there was a slot open on Radio One that we're looking for, and he he got invited in.

13:54 That's. Crazy. That's crazy. You really don't know until you put yourself out. You, you never know who's watching. You never know who's paying attention. And it's so important for the artist to hear who are too afraid to put out content or to do whatever because they want it to be perfect or, you know, feel like it won't be worth it if they don't win or get the exact result they were looking for. That's just not. That's just not how any of this works. No one likes rejection. No one likes rejection, right? It's a tough one, but you, you can't be. You can't be in this, I mean, you can't be in this game and trying to be on a level of, you know, these top, the top guys. You can be in this game and just, you know, be a local DJ, an event DJ, wedding DJ and you know, you connect locally and have a super successful career, almost like behind closed doors.

14:41 But if it's like you, if you want to be on that stage, you you've got to do anything possible because somebody else is. Yeah, right. You have someone else. Always is. So you've been in this scene for a long time and being on the education side of things, what is the biggest shift that you've seen in how DJs actually can build a real career now compared to 10 years ago? Probably two things. So the technology, first of all, so it's come through, you know, playing vinyl, then it was CDs, then it was Usbs. And now you're getting to a point where you can, you can learn, learn to DJ quite quickly, which is great because the, it allows the industry to grow because there's a lot of people coming in at the bottom of the funnel, top of the funnel, learning to DJ, buying a $250 controller, taking a course, learning quite quickly. And then all of a sudden it's like, I can DJ. So now what, what can I do with that? And now more than ever, there's more opportunities to be a DJ because it means a lot of different things. So back in the day, you would like clubs, you'd make a track, you'd go and maybe press vinyl if you're from that era. Or you would, you know, get a record label to sign your track. Your record label would put a load of money behind you and, and try and blow you up.

15:59 And then now opportunity is like within the DJ and the artist's hands, like, like probably for like the first time ever. Like you have almost complete control. But with that comes like a lot of hats and it changes what like the DJ means. But the opportunities are crazy, right? So you've got your club DJs, you've got your events like corporate parties, weddings, which is huge. They get paid a lot more than a lot of club guys. People don't realize that there is, you know, influencer DJ. So you build a brand online, you do brand deals, you get sponsorships and then you've got your your sort of typical artists who are trying to make bootlegs and trying to make sorry, get the track signed, trying to be on Coachella headlines.

16:40 And then you've got in between you've got DJs doing pop ups on YouTube, making a career of, of doing YouTube parties. So you grow an audience on YouTube, start throwing parties, making money from it. So there's a crazy amount of the, the word DJ now is just so wide open, which is great because there's loads of opportunity. It's quite easy to get into it. But the, the, the levels of what you've got to do to, I guess sustain it or choose the right path is very varied. And I think that's like the thing that we're trying to like teach students like straight away is like, OK, you can, you want, you want the skills, you want the mixing. If you're making music, of course your music's got to be really good. But the marketing, the social media, you also have to treat that the same level of respect in some way.

17:25 Yeah. And that's, I think that's the biggest gripe that a lot of artists have. But The thing is, is, you know, I feel like it's never been easier to market yourself. You have, you know, you don't have to go stand out on the street and pass out Flyers and, you know, hope that people come, which now there's kind of like this return to that. Like everyone's kind of trying to go like the vintage route, which I feel like is, you know, if it's done right, it's cool. Some of it's a little contrived, but I mean, I, I think you and I are in agreement. Like we see this from an abundance mindset of there's so many more opportunities now. It's just how you harness the tools. You asked me this question on when I was on your podcast. I want to know what you think, what are like the platforms and strategies that are actually moving the needle for artists in 2025?

18:13 Is it, you know, I mean, I feel like live streaming isn't really a big thing anymore, but is it? Is it TikTok? Like what? What have you seen worked for your students? I think, I think it goes down to like you really have to get sort of super focused on like what your like actual goal is. So like I just mentioned, there's so many different avenues in being DJ. If you want to be, if you want to be a touring artist, you've got to be, you've got to be, you know, making music, connecting with labels and being on your front and centre platforms, TikTok, Instagram, etcetera. But if you want to be, if you want to throw parties, you might want to do one of these, you know, YouTube videos where people come to a space and party all around you and create that vibe and energy that somebody wants to come to your party. And I've seen it.

18:57 I was listening to a podcast yesterday where these guys have been doing YouTube videos for about a year and now they're they're doing like, you know, three parties a week across America. It's something making, making good, good money. But I think if you can figure out what the goal is and, and then I always, I always think of like follow the people that you, you basically wanted to aspire to be. There's different like archetypes of like personality on social media. You've got like your storytellers. Maybe let's go James hype. You've got your storytellers who will take you through a story and you can tell your story and, and nobody's story is too small either. I think people really are scared of like being vulnerable or like showing the failures or something like that. But if you just look at James Hypes, he'll he'll tell you where he was DJ and you know, when he was 15, where he got kicked out this club, why this something broke, this went wrong, that went wrong. And then eventually, you know, the the success you've got like, yeah, I guess more like entertainment, like like Fisher, for example.

19:50 It was like just hilarious. And it's like nothing is very serious, but you follow it like the entertainment. Eats Everything is one of my favorite accounts. By the way, Eats Everything is so funny. Oh yeah. Speaking of humor, I just did a video about him because I'm doing, do you know the 12 brand archetypes like the jester, the sage? So I'm going through and doing a video on on each one. Good idea. And I put Eats Everything as as the Jester because he's just fucking hilarious. So funny. So yeah, if you're funny like that's a, that's a career strategy immediately. Yeah, it is. Yeah. And it is about like finding like what, what you are and really like elevate and digging that. And that's another thing as well. Like it's never been, I'd say like, if you go back 10 years ago, you kind of have to like be across a lot of things, whereas now like niche wins. So you can find your like niche audience very quickly. And you don't have to commit to being, let's say, like a like an open format DJ to, to get a few gigs just because you have to play everything.

20:46 You can really like niche down and like the algorithms will will find your following. There'll already be discord groups with your, if you like, you know, minimal side trans, you know only from Chicago that there'll be a group for that. Yeah. I know yeah, really find that early and that's really good in the early days. If you can find a little community of people who just like vibe off ideas and you know, what do you think of this? What do you think of this that can really help you. So if you can find a small community early on that that really helps. And we really try to like foster that in in crossfader. It's like when if you come on board as a as a, as a student, like there's different groups in different areas of like Discord where we will chat with you all the time. We've got Eve who's our social media manager. She finds like the best up and coming talent. And then we'll, we'll share their content to our audience and help build their following and that kind of thing. So yeah, I think specifically to like what platforms are working, it is like specific to like what you are. And I always say like, if you are new to it, like pick one. Like just pick one because it's a lot like they all work differently, they all talk differently, they're all set up differently.

21:52 But I would always say like whichever thing you get when you wake up in the morning, like whatever app you open first, like do choose that one. That's a really, Yeah. That's the one you're interested in the most, I think. That's so true. That's such a good, that's a good mind trick. I like that. There's so many like outdated ideas out there about like how we should be using social or what we should be doing. Is there anything that you've noticed that like DJ's obsess over that doesn't actually matter anymore? Like one thing that I think is like, and I talked about this on a piece content the other day is like the press picks. Everyone thinks they need like the coolest, dopest photo shoot. And then it's like, OK, that's great.

22:33 But you posting your press picks on social media is really for nobody but you. So what do you think? Is there anything you think that's just kind of like not as relevant anymore? Press pricks Flyers. I hate Flyers I hate. See, you can you can effectively you need to promote your gigs, I get that. But posting a flyer is not going to do anything like you hate it like you can. You can make it at the end of a carousel and tell a story about it to get people there or just just hold the camera up and tell people where you are. I'd rather hear that. I also think like, I think like the the trend, like the trend content is like really disappeared. Like there was a time where like you would point stuff on screen. That's good.

23:15 I mean, I remember doing that in the studio and I'm like, oh, this better go viral because I look stupid. Wait, wait, when's the last time you did that? Oh, I mean maybe, maybe 2021 something. Like, OK, all right, You know, it's been a while. Yeah. So that kind of thing comes and goes and like, that's not to say that like you shouldn't jump on a trend, but it's not like a strategy and everything like just get very like serious with a strategy. Like how much can you how much can you post and then come up with like two or three content themes where you can either batch create them or you don't have to like overthink about them. So like, because if the the paralyzation is waking up every day and thinking, all right, what am I posting today? It's like doesn't not how we operate. It's not how like any business operates. It's like, let's get 3 pillows.

24:04 I'm going to tell a story today. I'm going to provide value, which you maybe like a free bootleg or a free edit or a free download of my mix or something. And then maybe do like one trending piece of content or something like that. And then you can just sort of like start like batch creating content. But yeah, but I I'm with you like the the press pick stuff. I don't even know like where where it's the only good press picks are in like magazine, like DJ Mag and stuff like that's the only time you might need one like but. Yeah, right. Or your EP. But even like I don't want to see like if I was someone making a decision about an artist, it would be much cooler to see either a more stylized shoot, right, where there's like a concept behind it.

24:46 Yeah. Or or action shots like now all of that to say that Nexus we are offering a headshot station for people, but that is because that's it is a very expensive thing. And so we're covering the cost of the like the session and they just got to pay like I think we landed on like 50 bucks for like a whole bunch of pictures. Now if it's something that it's not expensive or whatever, like do it like have the press picks because it's nice you're going. To need them, you're going to need. Them you will, you will. It's just posting them on social is like it's like a self-serving. It's really no different than posting a selfie. That's that's the distinction. It's something you need, but it's like it's really just something to have in your portfolio. It's not like a social media tool. Yeah, 100%.

25:34 Yeah. You're going to need them for editorials. You're going to need them on fly and things like going forward and you know they last. They lasted a long time as well. Like you don't need to do them like every year. Well, for men, they do. For me, I change my hair color like every six months. Yeah. And then I'm like, shit, do I need new ones? But yeah, no, I mean, they're a tool. But yeah, you don't. You don't need to post them on social. OK so besides social media, if you had to tell ADJ to focus on like 3 things to build a career today, what would it be? And like soft skills too right? Like with the interpersonal stuff that they don't always think about. Yeah, it's interesting. I think I would definitely 100% the, the, the biggest thing that's going to grow like your brand as a DJ, it's actually, yeah, you can get good at social, you can get good at marketing, but networking and speaking to people is very, very, it doesn't come easy to a lot of people. And very weirdly, like the most DJ's I know aren't very extrovert.

26:36 They're actually introvert. And it's a tool to sort of get that out kind of thing. So like go in and speaking to people and like putting yourself out there asking for things is, is quite a, it's like a skill. It needs to be, it needs to be like going to the gym. It needs to be like trained all the time because that one, that, that thing, they're like, you know, the gigs I get now in my local town or abroad or anything like that don't come from social media. They come from my network of people and speaking and building, building that, that, that credibility and that trust over time. But you can have a, a very, you know, successful start to a career just by getting good at speaking to people. And also I, I also run it like a metric. So if you're, say you're after a gig or maybe one of your first gigs, if you send out 10 messages and get no replies, you've not learned anything.

27:27 If you send out 100, you might get 10 replies and might get 1 gig. So then you can go, OK, I'll put a line in the sand. I need to send 100 messages to get 1 gig. And that goes for like you're getting your track signed, getting your mix heard something like eyes. It's like a numbers game. And also don't be afraid to follow up with people. It it's not annoying, it shows it to it shows that you care. The person you've just tried to reach out to might have been on a call or they might be on holiday, on vacation, on holiday. So try and get good at networking. It's really hard for for a lot of people. But the events like yours, we were speaking about AD coming up. There's a lot of even like local events that you can go to and just meet some people and rarely, rarely does that not come with an opportunity, even if it's just a warm up set at somewhere, even if it's like I'll listen to your track, you know, etcetera. That that does go a long way.

28:24 The second one is the second one is get being very just being very specific about what it is that you want to do, because I think you can waste a lot of time trying to fit into like someone else's like bracket of what you think ADJ is like. If if you found boy fangirl over a certain artist and you just like just like go for that one artist. And like we said before, be super niche about it. And that doesn't mean you can't like on the way, you know, if you're picking up local gigs here and there where you have to play some Taylor Swift or something just to pay the bills, that's fine. But if you if, if you get specific, it's also, it's also very easy to do something that you love all the time. So if you love house music, just just be in love with house music and then just follow that train.

29:11 And then the last one would be the last one would probably be like a mindset thing, right? It'd be more like, it'd be more settling on that the, the, the end goal that you're trying to get to might not be what it lands on, but the journey, like we said at the top, the journey of what you might achieve through that might just land you something amazing. I was doing a talk at Fabric London for Tool Room like this year a few months ago and we were talking about that. If you want to be like in the DJ industry, there are so many opportunities within that. If if you're trying to be an artist, you might be that just through your path, you end up being, you know, VP of sales at B port or something.

29:56 You might have a point. You might have a podcast like we're on now that blows up. Something along that journey might just, you know, get you closer. It might you might land on something you love even more. And but it's all to do with like being in the like the DJ industry. I know I feel like I'm the only person in this industry that's not a DJ. Every time I meet someone on the back at like the business end of things, they all have a past life or current life as a DJ, which I think is such an amazing thing. Yeah, yeah, 100%. And and to the speaking to the networking point. I posted about this the other day too. I I am very introverted. Do you consider yourself introverted or are you extroverted? Kind of, yeah.

30:38 Like, I think it's when you, when you give yourself like a DJ name, when you turn up to gigs, you sort of switch into like a persona. That's why that's why everyone's got a DJ name. Yeah. Like, yeah, I think you just, you can turn on a persona and then when you get home it turns off and you just don't want to watch Love is Blind. Totally, yeah, 100% yeah. I, I, networking has always been a struggle for me. I think mine, my struggle came from, I used to be a TV reporter, right? And so when I would go somewhere, I would be equipped, either I was shooting all my own stuff because that we were we were called one man bands or sometimes I'd have a videographer, but like I would have a big branded camera and a microphone and a station logo was all over me. And so it was kind of like my right to be somewhere. I was like, I'm here because I'm representing this and like, that's why you have to talk to me. And so it was kind of like a shield for me. You know, it was like, don't you don't have to wonder why this girl is here.

31:34 This is this is my reason. And then that all got stripped away. And I went to like, because that was my experience right out of college, right? Like I got right into reporting and that got stripped away and I got into like the corporate world and then, you know, even working in the music industry in the very beginning. And I was like, you know, I don't, I don't have my protection. And so it made me realize like, I'm actually very introverted. And it takes a lot for me to kind of take that first step. And it's a skill that I feel very passionate about teaching because I'm learning alongside them, like to be better at it every day. And it's, it's, it is tough for artists. I mean, when you're a producer like you, what do you love the most? You love being in a in a studio at like. Studio, Yeah.

32:20 Creating art. Like, yeah, of course you're introverted. Yeah. And there are areas where a lot of people say, you know, can you be a introvert? Can you do this without social media? And there is there is social media, there is areas of social media that don't require your face, you know, discords, reddits, you can build a community and do amazing things. And I think more like, I guess model maybe locally. But again, it, it's just that just being super honest with if it, if your goal is to be somewhere on a stage at a festival somewhere, you just have to, you're going to have to come with some sort of marketing where I can get to know you. And he doesn't like you say it doesn't have to be that you are Fisher and you are just like hilarious, but he's like, just who are you?

33:08 And I said to shooters all the time, like there's no such every little win is a thing. So like if you just got 100 followers, like document it, take the screenshot, talk about it, because when you get to 200, you're going to be able to shout about that and people are going to back you and follow along for your journey. If you've just got your first gig, film it. If the crowd, if there's no one in the crowd, let people know, film it. And in two years time, when you're headlining a festival stage or something that is that is your marketing plan there that you can use forever and ever. Like my good friend Barry in chapter and verse. He's been on his podcast a couple of on my podcast a couple of times. You know, he's he's got this clip where he's like dejing in a pub and he's used that clip like like hundreds of times to like tell the story.

33:54 But it works. It works every time. It goes viral every time because it's like the story. You see somebody trying to do something and then eventually you do it. Just make sure you document it. You don't want to be in a position where you've just because you're like embarrassed or something. You haven't like documented that journey and also keeps you motivated as well. And you look back and be like, Oh yeah, man, I've, I've, I've grew 1000 followers in like 3 months. Like that's amazing. And you get little milestones when you're like in them, like low moments. Yeah, and it's so easy to. It's so easy to document it now. Like there's so many lost files that I wish I had from like, my college days, right? Like 2009, 2010. I'm like, damn.

34:34 But they're gone because they were pictures taken on Blackberries, you know? Like I don't have them anymore. So it's so I like, maybe I don't want to know. Like, it's good that those memories are locked away, you know, and never to be excavated. But no, it's so easy to like, keep a a digital diary of your journey and like, you never know when that video will come in handy. We, we, we put them out like in, in like newsletters and things like that. We, we put the bad stuff out from when we did mixes, like me and Jamie did a mix like when crossfaders started like 10 years ago. And it's awful. Listen back and like, Oh my God. But we, we show them that, we show them that video and they're like in emails and stuff and, and bad mixes and playing wrong, mixing our key and all this kind of thing because it's like, you know, we've, we've been through the journey and this is where we're at kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, I love it.

35:23 So AI, big topic, right? When it comes to producing music, making content, replacing jobs, Yeah, I've always had this optimistic perspective that it's going to make the human element of DJing and of life in general more valuable. Humans are going to become something made by a human is going to be of greater value. Now, where do you fall? It's kind of a big question, but where do you fall with your opinions on AI and using it as a tool versus not? Are you a purist? Yeah, I think it comes back to being like being in a, being a DJ.

36:03 You're a creative person, or at least most, most people are. You make music, you're creative person. And there's always you're looking for tools. If you're making music, you're looking for a new plug in. If you're posting on social media, I'm looking for what are the new tools that you can use to guys go viral? And I just see AI as that next thing to like lean into. We use it. I mean, we use it every single day. And we we lean, we, we lean in. It's like it's one of our like meta things about Crossfader is like we lean into to everything. So this is just like another opportunity and how can we specifically like teach, How can we use AI to help teach the world to DJ? How can we lead into that? We just invested like a lot of money into putting AI into our platform.

36:48 So that being built should be launching by probably the end of the year. So there could be like a huge AI influx into like our platforms. When you sign up as a member, you'll be able to chat, you know, give you feedback on your mixes, that kind of thing. That's what we're sort of building out at the minute. And then, yeah, just in like personal use, it's like there's never a day where I don't sort of use it. And I'm with you. Like I see it helping the DJ community more and more because the further we get detached, the, the more that people are going to want to come together. And there's probably no better industry in the world of getting people together for a like a human experience, a human experience. And I really like, and I also really like the, the, the growth of your sober parties, your coffee pop ups and stuff.

37:30 And a lot of people like mock them, but I just love that the DJ industry is finding another way to thrive for like the long term. And like I said, because the influx is so big, we're going to the different spaces are going to pop up everywhere. And I think that, you know, AI is you've got to, you've got to lean in. It's a bit like when you post content and you've got vinyl DJ telling you that controllers are bad and you've got the CDJ 3000X came out yesterday. You've got denim people telling you that they've had that for years. And it's like, you know, our, our ethos is just like to lean into something. So anywhere where we can use it to help our help, our career, our job, like use it.

38:13 I think that if you well, if you look at it of like, what can, if you say like, what would if I'm a DJ and I'm an established DJ, what would a DJ use in AI come and like, basically like, how could they take my job and like start to think about what would that look like? So he would you, you can use it for all the stuff you don't want to do, maybe like your taxes and things like that. The admin stuff that we don't like to do. You can do that. You can get your marketing plan, you can ask it questions to build your strategy for Instagram. Or you know, I need to send this track out to 50 labels. Can you tell me the 50 labels that have highest on beat board in the last three years, something like that. So yeah, I mean, I'm all in. We're all in as a as a as a business in general. And I think that I think that no getting away from it. And don't be.

39:00 Don't be left behind with them people you know. Absolutely. And I mean as as someone who's a marketer, right? And I do this for other people, people always ask me that like, well, it can replace your job. It's only as good as the person who's feeding it the prompts and putting in the inputs, right? It's a tool for me, but it's my specialized knowledge that is guiding you know what, what it spits back out at me. So, and, and like you said, you know, the, the, it's so interesting. I don't know if this is just the case of me like getting older, but you know, I'm on my phone constantly when I'm in my office, when I'm at home because it's just work, work, work. But then when I go out, I can't even like think about my phone if I'm at a show or at a dinner, like I'm really disconnected.

39:44 Me too. And you know, and it's like, again, I don't know if that's because I'm older now and I just, I feel like I never take. Photos on a night out or like. Me. Either a festival like I get home, I'm like I forgot to take any photos. Same. I'm so met like ARC, you would think because I just worked ARC and interviewed all these artists. I have a few, but that's because other people were reminding me. I was just like, you know, caught up in the moment. But but, but I, and that's, I think like because we're so inundated with the technology and our work that, yeah, the dance floor, there's an even greater case for it to be as human as possible and to connect with others. Yeah, I like, I like all technology that moves forward. People are going to capitalise on it. So like like before people buy music with live instruments and then, you know, Ableton and Logic and came around. So you use that and then there'll be there's tools out there which can make you a song in, in 20 seconds probably. But then it's like, you know, I'm really in it to follow you as a person, like like throughout it all, you know what I mean?

40:51 Like you don't really know what tools have been used to make music, right? Most people use the drag a sample of Splice and they'll they'll make it in 20 minutes. Do you know, does that make it any less valuable? Does that does that mean I like it any less? Like not really, because I like a track and then I start to begin to like follow like the person behind it, right. So if tools come along that makes the process easier to make music and also like a benefit to the the people that want to make music but struggle with music theory or things like that, It can again, just have a more of an influx of people making music, which is a good and a bad thing. But essentially, you're going to have to still be able to tell your story through various mediums for to turn like interest into like me being a fan, you know?

41:34 For sure. Last question for you is anything, it could be a piece of technology, a platform. What are what is something that artists are sleeping on that could really change the game for them if they're trying to breakthrough? Maybe a book that you've read that you want to recommend? Interesting. We've just done a couple of a few collaborations and one we had, we had Oscar Elchler on my podcast 2 weeks ago and he founded a company called Song Stats. And it blew my mind because I was out in Tomorrowland last year and I was with chapter and Verse and his phone kept pinging off saying Dmitri Vegas has played your track at this stage. He said, you know, Steve Aoki's played your track at this stage.

42:14 And I'm like, how, how do you how does he know that? So then Oscar reached out, his team reached out a few months ago and I started looking at the platform. The platform was called Song Stats. Now, if you're a music producer and you're trying to build a, a career, it's it's it's unbelievable. It can tell you where your songs get played. It can give you a list of, you know, potential labels that might want to pick up your track based on your recent play history. You can see in which countries are playing your music and where where it's being played. So if you suddenly find out you're popping off somewhere, you can then reach out to promoters in that area and say, Hey, I'm, I'm doing this distract blowing up, etcetera. And you can see what's where your stats on Spotify, SoundCloud 1001 track list, just like everywhere in the Internet.

42:56 And I was actually blown away. And I just thought, wow, what a incredible thing to have like in this day and age to just be able to have a a dashboard in your pocket that is that is tracking like where your music isn't helping you then refine your like marketing strategy. So yeah, I was actually blown away by it. And maybe just because I've not come across it before, but yeah, that that is animate. It's called Song starts.com. But definitely go and have a look at that because I think it's amazing piece of technology. Yeah, it's going to be later if. You want to learn how to DJ? Yes, of course, of course, which will put all that information in the show notes. But yeah, I mean, that's got to be the best notification to get that you open up your phone and one of your favorite artists played your track. That's. Then you need to find, you need to find the clip, right?

43:37 So then you go, you can go on TikTok and see if anyone's posted the clip from there. And then that can change careers. You've seen people's tracks go viral, get signed, go number one on Beatport and all of a suddenly the career. So I think it's just like unbelievable. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, amazing piece of tech technology. This was awesome. I'm glad that we got to close the loop on this and have you on my podcast, and I'm looking forward to seeing you in Amsterdam. Ade, in a few weeks, I'm excited. Yeah. Let's, let's grab a coffee. We might do part three. Yeah. And please come and listen to Off the Record podcast and Olivia's your interview is on there as well. What is your weekly elevation? Lawrence's journey from bedroom DJ to industry educator proves that sometimes the path you don't expect is exactly where you're meant to be.

44:26 So stop waiting for permission and start putting yourself out there, whether that's entering DJ competitions, networking at events, or just documenting your journey from day one. Now, Speaking of networking and putting yourself out there, if you can't make it to Ade next week, Chicago Music Nexus is your answer. We're covering the same essential industry topics and then some, and we sold out last year, so don't be the last one to secure your spot this year. All the details are in the show notes. Remember, success in dance music isn't about luck, it's about strategy. I will talk to you next week.